Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

statnews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 286 posts

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#271

Post by alexanderstears »

Frondo wrote: post #266
alexanderstears wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here's the rub - people who don't wait for catastrophe will shop around on price and healthcare providers will have to publish competitive prices for that business. You get to pay the advertised price which is going to be much lower than the myster price today. Regarding gun shots - I think people with gang tattoos shouldn't get healthcare for bullet / stab wounds. Let gang bangers quash their own beefs.

Neither you nor I know who was shot or why. I didn't mention "gang bangers" and it's offensive and stupid of you to bring that up. And you obviously haven't thought one bit about the very common situation where someone without health problems is suddenly struck by them, and in a way that makes them unable to price-negotiate. You're ignoring the reality of the health care world, and hey, fine, it's a free country, but…

If a person with teardrop / neck tattoos shows up with a gunshot wound on a weekend night, I have enough confidence to say "get out of this emergency room or we'll call the police".

The whole point of negotiation under duress is rendered moot when the person under duress gets to pay prices that are presented to people who aren't under duress.

Let me craft an analogy - once upon a time I was going on a road trip and forgot to get my oil changed until the day of the trip. I called up the dealer and asked if they could sneak me in - they could, and I got to pay the same oil change price as someone who scheduled it two weeks in advance. The dealer didn't jack up the price because I needed an oil change immediately and they couldn't because they list their prices and are legally bound to honor them.

I think healthcare should have the same thing - every medical facility should have to publish their prices and they should be bound to honor them.

And in my system, if you can't pay, you're not going to debtor's prison. You get to go on your way and you might see less social security or tax refunds until you've made good on your debt.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#272

Post by jeffbax »

dv_dt wrote: post #112
alexanderstears wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the US has an entire political party angrily decrying any effort to regulate healthcare as socialist slavery. Argubly regulation is the problem we're in this mess. Do you think an epipen would cost $600 if there weren't a Government granted monopoly? We have two parties who love the current amount of regulations on competition - you need to go to an AMA approved medical school to become a doctor, there aren't H1Bs fo…

Regulations can put pressure on prices (and if you look at epipens in particular, part of the regulations allowing the increase of their price have nothing to do with monopoly and a lot to do with getting policy placed into areas where organizations are required to keep an epipen on hand by regulation...). But in terms of overall effect, one can't ignore other nations which pay much lower prices for healthcare with b…

"So I don't think one can generically fault 'regulation' for a poorly performing health market in the US."

Well articulated counterpoint: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/08/29/reverse-voxsplaining-dr...

Also, we live in a country where most places they don't even allow opening a new hospital without the permission of surrounding hospitals, and all of the recent healthcare regulations have encouraged a seriously problematic consolidation just like the big banks.

As an industry, healthcare is so over-regulated it isn't even funny. The good news is that drug prices are still generally falling outside of big examples like Daraprim and Epipens and there are fairly effective solutions to the spikes we could have if the FDA would get onto more reciprocity with other nations: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/02/the...

Also relevant, the US Cost disease: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-...

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#273

Post by alexanderstears »

tormeh wrote: post #250
alexanderstears wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go try to wrestle a caveman for his fur pelt and see if he considers it to be a protected object. Force protects the object, sometimes the government exerts the force sometimes not.

>Go try to wrestle a caveman for his fur pelt and see if he considers it to be a protected object. But if I show up with a better club then all his stuff is now mine. A third party enforcing certain resource allocations with overwhelming force is different to everyone defending their own stuff. Government is the difference between property rights and might-makes-right.

But if I show up with a better club then all his stuff is now mine.

Bingo. Ownership exists without government - ownership exists to the extent others respect the claim.

Government is the difference between property rights and might-makes-right.

Governments are legitimate because of their might. Why do you think the basic social contract between authorities and the governed is "obedience for protection"?

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#274

Post by Frondo »

alexanderstears wrote: post #271
Frondo wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither you nor I know who was shot or why. I didn't mention "gang bangers" and it's offensive and stupid of you to bring that up. And you obviously haven't thought one bit about the very common situation where someone without health problems is suddenly struck by them, and in a way that makes them unable to price-negotiate. You're ignoring the reality of the health care world, and hey, fine, it's a free country, but…

If a person with teardrop / neck tattoos shows up with a gunshot wound on a weekend night, I have enough confidence to say "get out of this emergency room or we'll call the police". The whole point of negotiation under duress is rendered moot when the person under duress gets to pay prices that are presented to people who aren't under duress. Let me craft an analogy - once upon a time I was going on a road trip and f…

"If a person with teardrop / neck tattoos shows up with a gunshot wound"

Again, you don't know a single thing about the gunshot victims wheeled through the ER the night I was there.

You keep bringing up gang imagery, or trying to say somehow that those gunshot victims I saw deserved it or don't deserve medical care (they're just gang bangers and you want to call the cops??? no, they're fucking gunshot victims, and you don't know shit about them).

That is stupid, offensive, and wrong.

You don't know a thing about them and you've now twice inserted your completely-made-up-out-of-your-own-head "gang bangers" or "teardrop tattoos" shit.

Where the fuck is this gang banger garbage coming from?

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#275

Post by dv_dt »

jeffbax wrote: post #272
dv_dt wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulations can put pressure on prices (and if you look at epipens in particular, part of the regulations allowing the increase of their price have nothing to do with monopoly and a lot to do with getting policy placed into areas where organizations are required to keep an epipen on hand by regulation...). But in terms of overall effect, one can't ignore other nations which pay much lower prices for healthcare with b…

"So I don't think one can generically fault 'regulation' for a poorly performing health market in the US." Well articulated counterpoint: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/08/29/reverse-voxsplaining-dr... Also, we live in a country where most places they don't even allow opening a new hospital without the permission of surrounding hospitals, and all of the recent healthcare regulations have encouraged a seriously proble…

I don't find that first link well argued at all: because corporations have achieved some degree of regulatory capture from the FDA, we need to eliminate regulations and let those same corporations run completely rampant and somehow that will result in better performance? That makes no sense to me.

Also, the comparison there in the drug vs the chair market there is poor too. The key difference between manufacturing drugs and chairs (as in the example), is that anyone could enter the chair making with one guys who has had high school woodshop. Manufacturing a drug has a much much higher bar...

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#276

Post by dv_dt »

alexanderstears wrote: post #264
dv_dt wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those costs don't go to zero without compliance - there would either be costs to manufacture with sufficient medical quality or people would be getting shoddy drugs (which is a human cost). Blackmarket drugs get cut or replaced or just have random terrible things mixed into it all the time so I am skeptical of zero-compliance cost drugs.

Okay, if you want to pay extra for compliance, you're allowed to do so. Just as you're allowed to spend more on iPhones. It's mean-spirited of you to argue that others should be bound to your quality expectations.

If you don't want the quality, you are free to go procure the medical drugs and services from a back alley, but I doubt it's worth all the verification work that would require...

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#277

Post by alexanderstears »

dv_dt wrote: post #276
alexanderstears wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, if you want to pay extra for compliance, you're allowed to do so. Just as you're allowed to spend more on iPhones. It's mean-spirited of you to argue that others should be bound to your quality expectations.

If you don't want the quality, you are free to go procure the medical drugs and services from a back alley, but I doubt it's worth all the verification work that would require...

That's not true in America.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#278

Post by alexanderstears »

Frondo wrote: post #274
alexanderstears wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a person with teardrop / neck tattoos shows up with a gunshot wound on a weekend night, I have enough confidence to say "get out of this emergency room or we'll call the police". The whole point of negotiation under duress is rendered moot when the person under duress gets to pay prices that are presented to people who aren't under duress. Let me craft an analogy - once upon a time I was going on a road trip and f…

"If a person with teardrop / neck tattoos shows up with a gunshot wound" Again, you don't know a single thing about the gunshot victims wheeled through the ER the night I was there. You keep bringing up gang imagery, or trying to say somehow that those gunshot victims I saw deserved it or don't deserve medical care (they're just gang bangers and you want to call the cops??? no, they're fucking gunshot victims, and yo…

I don't know "where the fuck this gang banger garbage" is coming from but there'd be a lot less of it if we stopped giving them get out of jail free cards in the form of emergency healthcare.

You know what's offensive? I pay more than my fair share healthcare expenses and I don't get better access to care than lazy people.

You know what's stupid? Health insurers can't adjust my policy based on my gender, but auto insurers can.

You know what's wrong? The status quo that makes it better to present to an E.R as a lazy jobless poor person than someone who's working poor.

You know the system is bad, why are you defending it? Why don't you go out and tell those gang bangers to put down their guns? They won't, and you're too scared to talk to them because you know deep down that violent poor people in bad parts of town are dangerous and beyond reason.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#279

Post by alexanderstears »

dv_dt wrote: post #275
jeffbax wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So I don't think one can generically fault 'regulation' for a poorly performing health market in the US." Well articulated counterpoint: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/08/29/reverse-voxsplaining-dr... Also, we live in a country where most places they don't even allow opening a new hospital without the permission of surrounding hospitals, and all of the recent healthcare regulations have encouraged a seriously proble…

I don't find that first link well argued at all: because corporations have achieved some degree of regulatory capture from the FDA, we need to eliminate regulations and let those same corporations run completely rampant and somehow that will result in better performance? That makes no sense to me. Also, the comparison there in the drug vs the chair market there is poor too. The key difference between manufacturing dr…

I don't find that first link well argued at all: because corporations have achieved some degree of regulatory capture from the FDA, we need to eliminate regulations and let those same corporations run completely rampant and somehow that will result in better performance? That makes no sense to me.

If that's what you got from SSC's cost disease article, you might have some bias in your framework.

Re: An anarchist takes on Big Pharma by teaching patients to make their own meds

#280

Post by Frondo »

alexanderstears wrote: post #278
Frondo wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If a person with teardrop / neck tattoos shows up with a gunshot wound" Again, you don't know a single thing about the gunshot victims wheeled through the ER the night I was there. You keep bringing up gang imagery, or trying to say somehow that those gunshot victims I saw deserved it or don't deserve medical care (they're just gang bangers and you want to call the cops??? no, they're fucking gunshot victims, and yo…

I don't know "where the fuck this gang banger garbage" is coming from but there'd be a lot less of it if we stopped giving them get out of jail free cards in the form of emergency healthcare. You know what's offensive? I pay more than my fair share healthcare expenses and I don't get better access to care than lazy people. You know what's stupid? Health insurers can't adjust my policy based on my gender, but auto ins…

Again, you assume these gunshot victims were gang members.

You don't know shit about these gunshot victims but in your mind "gunshot victim = gang member".

Do you honestly really think that everyone who has been shot and taken to a hospital ER is a gang member?

Honestly, really? No one who's been shot isn't in a gang?

If your answer is "yes, every gunshot victim is a gang member" then you're a real prize moron, no two ways around it.

Post reply on HN