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Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week

#121

Post by grandalf »

hexane360 wrote: post #61
grandalf wrote: post #28

It's important to keep in mind that Tesla (like Walmart, Whole Foods, and Amazon) has been targeted by big labor for infiltration and union formation [1] [2] This is not necessarily because working conditions make workers feel that they would prefer the tradeoffs of unionization, but simply because Tesla is much more competitive without its workforce unionized, and so labor groups that are entrenched in legacy car ma…

>simply because Tesla is much more competitive without its workforce unionized Do you really think unions believe that they have a negative effect on business? This action fits in with the stated ideals of unionization, so why do you feel the need to explain it as part of some hidden agenda? >In many states labor unions have significant power granted by favorable laws that far exceed the market power they derive simp…

> Do you really think unions believe that they have a negative effect on business?

They don't care. Unions drove the US automakers into bankruptcy with unsustainable pension plans, and corrupt regulators failed to adequately insure them via the PBGC. Thus Unions and firms colluded to foist pension risk onto taxpayers.

I've encountered the most bigoted, anti-immigrant, racist rants from union workers. Rather than focusing on larger economic trends and the obvious need for continual training and skill-improvement, unions focus on workers feeling entitled to a certain wage or standard of living even when economic shifts render those skills obsolete.

Because of the cronyism with regulators, massive sections of the economy get hijacked by their deals, and consumers have to essentially pay them welfare for failing to be competitive in the marketplace for decades.

Think of the most backward industries in the US, those are the ones with the strongest union involvement. Yes, those industries helped in the past to elevate people out of poverty, but now they simply hold back progress in the same way that cozy regulations benefitting financial firms and banks hold back progress in banking.

Re: Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week

#122

Post by csours »

lord_jim wrote: post #27
Nothorized wrote: post #3

To give a scale, Tesla has more than 30 000 employees [1]. That is just a little above 1%. [1] https://electrek.co/2017/06/01/tesla-elon-musk-employees-har...

I found that number surprising, although I also know very little about what it takes to manufacture things. Any idea what the employee breakdown looks like in terms of profession and area of focus (since they have solar city too)?

No more than 3k would be working on the assembly operations, and maybe a good deal less (based on knowledge of other automotive assembly operations).

That 3k would include line assembly workers, material delivery, quality inspectors as well as skilled trades like electricians, pipe fitters, tool and die makers (for stamping operations)

Another 1-2k assembly staff (IT, Quality Engineers, Controls Engineers, Material Coordinators).

Tesla does a lot of in-house component manufacturing, so that may be another 3-10k (I'm including gigafactory in this estimate, but I have no real clue here, as I don't know how much of this they actually do).

Then you have people like automotive designers, engineers, and buyers, no real clue here, but almost certainly less than 2k.

Then you have corporate functions: accountants, hr, IT, other back office, another 500?

Then you have the sales side - not sure how they structure this, but they have a lot of show rooms with a good number of people working them - another 1k?

3 + 2 + 10 + 2 + .5 + 1 = 18,500

They're doing a lot of plant construction and equipment installation; generally in the industry most or all of that is outsourced, but Tesla seems to prefer strong vertical integration, so maybe those are straight Tesla employees as well.

Re: Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week

#123

Post by wallace_f »

virtuabhi wrote: post #13
dmitrygr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pro-union workers were among those fired this week. Some believe they were targeted I hate sneakily-worded sentences like this. Also among them, were women, hetrosexuals, and probably one or two Vietnam veterans. Some believe they were targetted.

My rule of thumb is to give benefit of doubt to weaker sections.

In theory, Tesla might actually be the weaker party in this case. An industry-specific union is known in textbook economics as a labor cartel, or as a device which holds labor hostage.

While historically they were necessary, today fewer examples exist of employees as the captive market--where a union makes sense. In other words, many times it is the employer who is taken advantage of.

If unions were open and free to join for all people, I mean that would be one thing; but they are not. Membership is dependent on things such as family. They're tough and politically correct, but regressive and unfair.

Re: Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week

#124

Post by grandalf »

Avshalom wrote: post #56
alew1 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like people who "strongly support organized labor" don't write like this about organized labor ("infiltration and union formation"?). Its _workforce_ is not "vulnerable to attack" from big labor, its bottom line is, and to the benefit of its workers. That's how unions work.

They support labor "in the abstract" which is to say they don't support labor "in reality".

It's hard to support groups that hire thugs to stand on the picket line and intimidate customers from going into Borders to buy a book.

I won't forget the way it felt to be intimidated by those thugs. It's worse than intimidation I've received from police, etc.

Then watching unions destroy the American auto industry with their greedy pension plans and inadequately underwritten PBGC was the last straw. They once served a noble and important purpose in society but have become parasitic and backward.

The controversial and racist rhetoric used by Trump to win over disgruntled rust belt voters was taken from standard pro-labor rhetoric.

Re: Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week

#126

Post by csours »

Avshalom wrote: post #26
cbanek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's the WARN act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_Adjustment_and_Retraini... California also has their own version: https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/hr-...

TIL. ETA: this is getting downvoted; I have enough karma that I don't care about being downvoted but for the record, I am sincere that Today I Learned.

Reddit style, low value add comments tend to get downvoted on HN.

Re: Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week

#127

Post by mattmcknight »

KirinDave wrote: post #90
grandalf wrote: post #28

It's important to keep in mind that Tesla (like Walmart, Whole Foods, and Amazon) has been targeted by big labor for infiltration and union formation [1] [2] This is not necessarily because working conditions make workers feel that they would prefer the tradeoffs of unionization, but simply because Tesla is much more competitive without its workforce unionized, and so labor groups that are entrenched in legacy car ma…

> and so labor groups that are entrenched in legacy car manufacturing wish to prevent Tesla from accelerating those companies' decline. You say this but Tesla got absolutely spanked in the last 3 quarters in its auto division by the supposedly inferior unionized likes of Chevrolet, Fiat, Nissan and Toyota. ALL of them got much more affordable offerings out to market before the Model 3 was ready. Fiat managed to get r…

What do you mean by "absolutely spanked"? They have out delivered all the other brands you mention this year, by number of sales and dollars,in and have a huge backlog of pre-orders. https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

Re: Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week

#128

Post by dilemma »

grandalf wrote: post #121
hexane360 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>simply because Tesla is much more competitive without its workforce unionized Do you really think unions believe that they have a negative effect on business? This action fits in with the stated ideals of unionization, so why do you feel the need to explain it as part of some hidden agenda? >In many states labor unions have significant power granted by favorable laws that far exceed the market power they derive simp…

> Do you really think unions believe that they have a negative effect on business? They don't care. Unions drove the US automakers into bankruptcy with unsustainable pension plans, and corrupt regulators failed to adequately insure them via the PBGC. Thus Unions and firms colluded to foist pension risk onto taxpayers. I've encountered the most bigoted, anti-immigrant, racist rants from union workers. Rather than focu…

Peak Silicon Valley Anarcho-capitalism.

Re: Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week

#129

Post by alexasmyths »

loeg wrote: post #91
NegativeLatency wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the shoe fits.

Be bold. Make the claim, or don't make the claim. Half-heartedly making the claim is shoddy journalism.

"Be bold. Make the claim, or don't make the claim. Half-heartedly making the claim is shoddy journalism."

No.

It would be impossible to verify and to say with certainty the fact that Tesla was targeting Union folks - if this were true.

Second - the journo is communicating the opinions of others, not his/her own.

There would be Musk, and a very small handful of trusted lieutenants who would have been behind it (if it happened).

But - one could look at the totality of those who are fired - and find that 'most of the vocal union bakers' were let go.

So what does this mean?

It doesn't prove anything - but it looks pretty bad, doesn't it?

So a journalist talks to some of the current or laid off workers, and they say 'off the record' - that this has happened, and 'we think they did this to kabosh the union agenda' - well, then it's reasonable.

If the journalist is just 'making it up'- that would be a deep dereliction of their duty.

But if 'some were actually saying' this, in this journalists interviews, then it's fair for them to say.

And it would be irresponsible for the journalist to say 'Musk specifically targeted Union advocates' unless they had some pretty good evidence that this were true. Which would be very hard.

Re: Tesla fired hundreds of employees in past week

#130

Post by grandalf »

dilemma wrote: post #125
grandalf wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

added

you added a number of links but none of them support anything that you said. you even used yourself as a source.

> you even used yourself as a source

That part is simply my opinion, no other citation is available.

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