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African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

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Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#111
post #61

The primary purpose of language is understanding. Forking a language to convey some sort of cultural distinction has the unfortunate side effect of making this more difficult.

The other primary purpose of language is communicating group membership. For example, it's reasonable to guess that you belong to the "uses version control" group by your use of the word "forking" in a non-VC context above.

I'd argue that this is only a secondary purpose at most -- and in this case not intended at all. Also, there are other uses of the word forking outside of VC. For instance, I have heard it in the context of threads first... O:)

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#112

I find it easy to pick up dialects, but most people I know (especially people who've learned English as a second language) have trouble understanding various Southern, various Northern New England, various UK, various New Zealander, various South African, and various Australian accents. As a matter of efficiency, I figure everyone in North America should master Standard American English (hard r, cot-caught split, pin…

IME the cot-caught merge is widespread enough that "split" can't be considered a requirement for standard. (Wikipedia says 40% merge, 60% don't.)

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#113

There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…

I'm going to top-post this, but this argument is _precisely_ the one made by david foster wallace in "authority and american usage", and it is bang-on correct.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#114
This is eerily reminscent of "Authority and American Usage", a 2001 essay by david foster wallace. The samizdat copy is here: http://wilson.med.harvard.edu/nb204/AuthorityAndAmericanUsag...

Quoting from a section discussing Standard Written English vs. Standard Black English (footnotes omitted):

I'm not trying to suggest here that an effective SWE pedagogy would require teachers to wear sunglasses and call students Dude. What I am suggesting is that the rhetorical situation of a US English class---a class composed wholly of young people whose Group identity is rooted in defiance of Adult Establishment values, plus also composed partly of minorities whose primary dialects are different from SWE---requires the teacher to come up with overt, honest, and compelling arguments for why SWE is a dialect worth learning.

These arguments are hard to make. Hard not intellectually but emotionally, politically. Because they are baldly elitist.[^60] The real truth, of course, is that SWE is the dialect of the American elite. That it was invented, codified, and promulgated by Privileged WASP Males and is perpetuated as "Standard" by same. That it is the shibboleth of the Establishment, and that it is an instrument of political power and class division and racial discrimination and all manner of social inequity. These are shall we say rather delicate subjects to bring up in an English class, especially in the service of a pro-SWE argument, and extra-especially if you yourself are both a Privileged WASP Male and the teacher and thus pretty much a walking symbol of the Adult Establishment. This reviewer's opinion, though, is that both students and SWE are way better served if the teacher makes his premises explicit and his argument overt---plus it obviously helps his rhetorical credibility if the teacher presents himself as an advocate of SWE's utility rather than as some sort of prophet of its innate superiority.

Because the argument for SWE is both most delicate and (I believe) most important with respect to students of color, here is a condensed version of the spiel I've given in private conferences[^61] with certain black students who were (a) bright and inquisitive as hell and (b) deficient in what US higher education considers written English facility:

"I don't know whether anybody's told you this or not, but when you're in a college English class you're basically studying a foreign dialect. This dialect is called Standard Written English. [Brief overview of major US dialects a la page 98.] From talking with you and reading your first couple essays, I've concluded that your own primary dialect is [one of three variants of SBE common to our region]. Now, let me spell something out in my official teacher-voice: the SBE you're fluent in is different from SWE in all kinds of important ways. Some of these differences are grammatical- for example, double negatives are OK in Standard Black English but not in SWE, and SBE and SWE conjugate certain verbs in totally different ways. Other differences have more to do with style---for instance, Standard Written English tends to use a lot more subordinate clauses in the early parts of sentences, and it sets off most of these early subordinates with commas, and under SWE rules, writing that doesn't do this tends to look "choppy." There are tons of differences like that. How much of this stuff do you already know? [STANDARD RESPONSE = some variation on "I know from the grades and comments on my papers that the English profs here don't think I'm a good writer."] Well, I've got good news and bad news. There are some otherwise smart English profs who aren't very aware that there are real dialects of English other than SWE, so when they're marking up your papers they'll put, like, "Incorrect conjugation" or "Comma needed" instead of "SWE conjugates this verb differently" or "SWE calls for a comma here."That's the good news---it's not that you're a bad writer, it's that you haven't learned the special rules of the dialect they want you to write in. Maybe that's not such good news, that they've been grading you down for mistakes in a foreign language you didn't even know was a foreign language. That they won't let you write in SBE. Maybe it seems unfair. If it does, you're probably not going to like this other news: I'm not going to let you write in SBE either. In my class, you have to learn and write in SWE. If you want to study your own primary dialect and its rules and history and how it's different from SWE, fine---there are some great books by scholars of Black English, and I'll help you find some and talk about them with you if you want. But that will be outside class. In class---in my English class---you will have to master and write in Standard Written English, which we might just as well call "Standard White English" because it was developed by white people and is used by white people, especially educated, powerful white people. [RESPONSES at this point vary too widely to standardize.] I'm respecting you enough here to give you what I believe is the straight truth. In this country, SWE is perceived as the dialect of education and intelligence and power and prestige, and anybody of any race, ethnicity, religion, or gender who wants to succeed in American culture has got to be able to use SWE. This is just How It Is. You can be glad about it or sad about it or deeply pissed off. You can believe it's racist and unfair and decide right here and now to spend every waking minute of your adult life arguing against it, and maybe you should, but I'll tell you something---if you ever want those arguments to get listened to and taken seriously, you're going to have to communicate them in SWE, because SWE is the dialect our nation uses to talk to itself. African-Americans who've become successful and important in US culture know this; that's why King's and X's and Jackson's speeches are in SWE, and why Morrison's and Angelou's and Baldwin's and Wideman's and Gates's and West's books are full of totally ass-kicking SWE, and why black judges and politicians and journalists and doctors and teachers communicate professionally in SWE. Some of these people grew up in homes and communities where SWE was the native dialect, and these black people had it much easier in school, but the ones who didn't grow up with SWE realized at some point that they had to learn it and become able to write fluently in it, and so they did. And [STUDENT'S NAME], you're going to learn to use it, too, because I am going to make you."

I should note here that a couple of the students I've said this stuff to were offended---one lodged an Official Complaint---and that I have had more than one colleague profess to find my spiel "racially insensitive." Perhaps you do, too. This reviewer's own humble opinion is that some of the cultural and political realities of American life are themselves racially insensitive and elitist and offensive and unfair, and that pussyfooting around these realities with euphemistic doublespeak is not only hypocritical but toxic to the project of ever really changing them.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#115
post #48

Norwegians spend the late 1800s and early 1900s quarreling amongst themselves what should be the standard for written Norwegian. Should they take the heavily Danish-influenced written language common in cities, or should they use something closer to the dialects spoken in the rural areas? Eventually, their parliament ruled that Norway shall have two official written languages and all government documents will be publ…

On a side note: for whatever reason I think I can read about 1 in 3 words in Norwegian (standard and book) with no prior training. Makes me wonder if an ancestor ate some lutefisk or something.

I mean it is a Germanic language along with English. There are plenty of cognates.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#116
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't have to. I recently started a role where I work very closely with a guy from southern Kansas. He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. And true to form, he was raised on a farm. But he's smart, hard working and great to work with. Every day that we work together, I'm learning things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. No one criticizes him for speaki…

I'd disagree with you that speaking with a southern twang doesn't disqualify a person. I came out of deep East Texas and I have a bit of a drawl in my voice that comes out when I'm tired or stressed but for the most part, I intentionally speak as closely to SAE as possible. Because people do disqualify me and I think you may have judged your friend too. You say you associate his accent with people considered non-inte…

> he believes someone may make the judgement call that he is unintelligent because of the way he speaks, just like you associate speaking like a redneck to unintelligence

That's a really great point. The very fact that I do mentally associate my friends accent that way is part of the problem. It's a problem that I hope I am getting better at overcoming.

I'd rather by a hypocrite and say it's wrong than agree to the idea that it's okay to need to modify the way you speak to avoid being disqualified by society.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#117
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and many rules of AAVE are more consistent. For instance take the following words in standard English: * yourself * myself * ourselves * himself * itself One of these things is not like the other! All of these take the form of possive + "self," except "himself." And sure enough, in AAVE we have "hisself" instead. A more logical, consistent replacement.

You omitted 2 of the reflexive pronouns. Only the 1st and 2nd person forms use the possessive: * myself, ourselves, yourself. All of the 3rd person forms use the personal pronoun: * themselves, himself, herself, itself Does AAVE also use "theirselves" ?

This article http://acrwebsite.org/volumes/7610/volumes/v21/NA-21 claims that AAVE uses "theirselves".

A quick search on Twitter suggests that "theirselves" is indeed used by people who use "hisself", but perhaps half an order of magnitude less than "themselves".

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#118
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other primary purpose of language is communicating group membership. For example, it's reasonable to guess that you belong to the "uses version control" group by your use of the word "forking" in a non-VC context above.

I'd argue that this is only a secondary purpose at most -- and in this case not intended at all. Also, there are other uses of the word forking outside of VC. For instance, I have heard it in the context of threads first... O:)

It doesn't have to be intended. It's just that every time you write or speak you communicate group membership. For example, there are further implications about group membership when you correct my interpretation of forking. Another example: unless it's a typo, your grammar ("I have heard") indicates that English is not your first language.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#119
post #51

There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…

You shouldn't have to. I recently started a role where I work very closely with a guy from southern Kansas. He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals. And true to form, he was raised on a farm. But he's smart, hard working and great to work with. Every day that we work together, I'm learning things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. No one criticizes him for speaki…

"He speaks with an accent that I would associate with hicks, farmers, non-intellectuals"

That might be because you're a hint bigoted? (No offence, but why else would you think that?)

(FYI someone from Kansas speaks with an accent - it's not a dialect.)

Or perhaps you've been trained very well by decades of Hollywood/New York representation of 'anyone with a southern accent as stupid?'

Also - you do realize that like 1/3 of Americans speak like that? Have you ever even been to the South?

I'm not American, but I've lived in various American states and come from a 'small town' myself.

After years of wondering how this stereotype exists so strongly in North East/West Coast American culture (i.e. negative view of Southern accents) - I believe it's something done expressly by the creative and Ivy League class: almost always when someone with an 'southern accent' is on TV, they're portrayed in a negative way.

I think that the 'Civil War' North/South divide is in some ways, still ongoing, culturally. Northerners are bigoted towards Southerners.

Where I'm from, in Canada, the accent issue still exists, but not remotely as strongly.

A thick 'Ottawa Valley' accent might mark you as 'a country local' but not 'stupid' or 'racist' or 'redneck'.

FYI Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter have soft Southern accents.

Re: African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard English with Mistakes (1999) [pdf]

#120

There is a very big aspect that people overlook in this conversation. There is what is known as the "dialect of power" and in the US that is Standard American English. It's not necessarily "wrong" to speak AAVE but in doing so, you will disqualify yourself from opportunities that could otherwise be open to you based on your education and/or experience. If someone calls you to schedule a job interview and you don't so…

Sure, but lots of people code switch. As a southern white guy, I also don't speak on interviews the same way I do to my friends. Even around other southerns, you want to "turn it down" in a professional setting. I don't think there's any danger of English teachers not pushing standard American English. Mastering it does open doors. But I think we should also learn about other dialects, because in learning about them…

'Southern English' is 'Standard American English' :)

It's just an accent, not a dialect :)

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