New York governor approves short-term apartment rental ban in NYC • Hacker News Board

Re: New York governor approves short-term apartment rental ban in NYC

#81

Post by patrickgzill » Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 2:58 PM UTC

jawngee wrote: post #75

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #68

Interesting startup lesson here. NYC -- famous for high cost-of-living. So folks start micro-leasing as a way to recoup costs. Several startups are created as a way to coordinate these micro-leases. Response? Government steps in and shuts it down. The reason social problems, like housing shortages and the political responses, are important to talk about on HN is that big companies solve big problems, and nothing happ…

No, what I think you will find are people who believe that operating a commercial enterprise, which is what micro-leasing is, needing to be subject to regulation, licensing, insurance and liability - which they are currently aren't. I also believe you'll find people concerned about the possibility of renters being taken advantage of with no legal recourse. It's pretty simple.

Because having regulations, licenses, insurance and liability, is just absolutely necessary - as it has been for innkeepers during medieval times, the Victorian era, etc...

Your worship of government is misguided.

Re: New York governor approves short-term apartment rental ban in NYC

#82

Post by DanielBMarkham » Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 2:58 PM UTC

jawngee wrote: post #75

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #68

Interesting startup lesson here. NYC -- famous for high cost-of-living. So folks start micro-leasing as a way to recoup costs. Several startups are created as a way to coordinate these micro-leases. Response? Government steps in and shuts it down. The reason social problems, like housing shortages and the political responses, are important to talk about on HN is that big companies solve big problems, and nothing happ…

No, what I think you will find are people who believe that operating a commercial enterprise, which is what micro-leasing is, needing to be subject to regulation, licensing, insurance and liability - which they are currently aren't. I also believe you'll find people concerned about the possibility of renters being taken advantage of with no legal recourse. It's pretty simple.

I was going to use a bit of napkin logic to explore what you've said, but on further inspection your logic is circular, so needs no further exploration.

If these things should be regulated because they are of a type of thing to be regulated? Then we haven't really advanced the discussion much, have we?

Maybe you want to have a "big government" argument, but forget all of that. I'll assume you are correct. This is a type of thing that of necessity needs regulation. There are other enterprises just like this one who were not regulated. So why now? Why this? Certainly you don't feel like the actions were just random -- somebody rolls a dice and picks these guys out. I mean, as good and as wonderful and as healthy as all these restrictions are, they have to come from somewhere, right?

Pick your favorite thing you wanted the government to do or not do over the last 20 years that never happened. Why did the government do some things and not others? Is there some secret logic or calculus that is used to determine which things to fix and which not to fix? Or is it just votes?

I mean, you understand the reason for political parties, right? The use of force to protect interests. The speeches are all about bunnies and apple pie and protecting orphans, but bunnies and apple pies and orphans don't vote or make campaign contributions, do they?

Sorry about the cynicism, but there's a very interesting economic lesson going on here that has to do with startups, so I thought it worthwhile to point out.

Not trying to get in an argument, although I have no doubt that I've gotten into one. So I'm done here.

Re: New York governor approves short-term apartment rental ban in NYC

#83

Post by richcollins » Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 2:59 PM UTC

jawngee wrote: post #66

I live in NYC, and while I think AirBnB is decent idea, I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a building where the landlord - or another tenet - were renting out their spot like a hotel or hostel. At the point you are doing that with any sort of regularity you should be subject to licensing, insurance, etc.

If you don't want to live someplace that allows short term rentals, make sure it's in the contract that you sign when you buy the place. No regulation required.

Re: New York governor approves short-term apartment rental ban in NYC

#84

Post by patrickgzill » Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 3:00 PM UTC

uuilly wrote: post #42

ataggart wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."

Love it. I've been reading a bunch of Thomas Sowell recently. That seems like it could be straight out of "A Conflict of Visions."

Hayek.

Re: New York governor approves short-term apartment rental ban in NYC

#85

Post by swah » Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 3:01 PM UTC

How well does this apply in practice? "You're going to receive some friends in your house while you're away."

Re: New York governor approves short-term apartment rental ban in NYC

#86

Post by mattmillr » Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 3:06 PM UTC

jawngee wrote: post #72

jawngee wrote: post #66

I live in NYC, and while I think AirBnB is decent idea, I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a building where the landlord - or another tenet - were renting out their spot like a hotel or hostel. At the point you are doing that with any sort of regularity you should be subject to licensing, insurance, etc.

This is exactly why I'm growing tired of social news sites too. Instead of responding in disagreement, you get downvoted. The whole thing is cowardly and/or lazy. Whomever downvoted me, you are telling me that you wouldn't mind a constant rotation of complete strangers taking residence in the apartment across the hall from you with no recourse for liability?

I haven't downvoted you, but would like to point out that there is a very large middle ground for disagreement without taking the absurd position of "you wouldn't mind a constant rotation of complete strangers..." Your argument is just as lazy.

Re: New York governor approves short-term apartment rental ban in NYC

#87

Post by zavulon » Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 3:10 PM UTC

shykes wrote: post #17

fmora wrote: post #13

The first time I read about something like this I was outraged. "How dare they, the government is blocking people's ability to do business". Then, after some careful thought I started to agree with this ban. Basically I put myself in the shoes of a resident next to a building being used as an illegal hotel. The people do not have the proper permits. Obviously they are not licensed. The fact that there is always new p…

You are missing one important point: most people affected by this ban are individuals, renting out one room at a time, maybe two. I have a hard time believing this generates any kind of noticeable "coming and going". In fact, tolerating the rental of a single room per household strikes me as a good way of separating the wheat from the chaff. Ironically, even Cuba has such an exception: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ca…

You'll be surprised.. I've seen 3 people per room, 9 people per apartment, many times. NYC is a strange place.

Re: New York governor approves short-term apartment rental ban in NYC

#88

Post by mattmillr » Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 3:18 PM UTC

nphase wrote: post #15

I was in NYC with my team this past Jan, trying to raise money with a few angels in the area. The three of us decided to rent a furnished apartment to save money. I was pleasantly surprised by the amount of space this decision afforded. There was plenty of desk space in the unit and while there weren't enough beds for each of us the couches made due just fine. The landlord explained that they were having trouble leas…

Another anecdote: I moved to the city in late March. Since then, I've been in five sublets while I looked for a suitable permanent place to live. (Moving in tomorrow!)

One of those sublets would have been legal under this new law.

The first was a vacation rental business, very well run by the owner of the building. I stayed there two months, so it wouldn't fall under this rule, but I was the exception: most of his business would.

Another was a young professional who rented out her tiny one-bedroom in the East Village to help pay for her vacation.

A third was a friend of mine who was out of the country for a few weeks. A win-win situation, I paid her rent and got a place to live.

The fourth was a room in a shared loft with three roommates. The guy renting the room was a photographer who spent the two weeks in Haiti documenting the recovery. The rent money helped fund his trip.

The fifth, the one I'm in right now, was another friend's place. She moved out at the first of the month (due to the availability of her new apartment and her new roommates' schedules) but was obligated to pay the rent through the end of the month. Again, win-win. I help with her rent and have a place to live.

Tomorrow, I move into an apartment of my own. There is a specific no-subletting clause in the contract, and I'll honor that. But I wouldn't have made it moving to the city if this law had been in effect four months ago.

Re: New York governor approves short-term apartment rental ban in NYC

#89

Post by mattmillr » Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 3:24 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #55

gruseom wrote: post #8

Yet another illustration of how those with political power are not subject to the discipline of the market.

Hotels pay a lot of taxes in support of local attractions, parks, museums, and other such facilities. It seems reasonable to me that if your rending your place in less than 1 month increments you should be regulated as a hotel and pay those taxes. Now add to that the fact there are external costs to short term rentals (random renters through more wild party's) and banning these seems reasonable to me.

> random renters through more wild party's [sic]

Really? Can you back that up. Data please.

It's an anecdote, not data (but still more than you've got): In my four months being a random renter I've thrown exactly one party. It was a brunch, and two people came. Not wild at all.

I've been to a number of parties that were much "wilder." All thrown by regular tenants. The wildest was attended by the building's doorman.

Re: New York governor approves short-term apartment rental ban in NYC

#90

Post by mattmillr » Sat, Jul 24, 2010, 3:29 PM UTC

MikeMacMan wrote: post #59

shykes wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing one important point: most people affected by this ban are individuals, renting out one room at a time, maybe two. I have a hard time believing this generates any kind of noticeable "coming and going". In fact, tolerating the rental of a single room per household strikes me as a good way of separating the wheat from the chaff. Ironically, even Cuba has such an exception: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ca…

Assemblyman Richard Gottfried states in this interview that the law is designed to eliminate 'illegal hotels', where real estate companies or building owners rent out many units in a building. He says that they have never gone after people renting out their rooms, and doesn't expect that to change: http://beta.wnyc.org/shows/bl/2010/jul/08/illegal-hotel-crac...

"Yeah, I know we just made the thing you're doing illegal, but no worries, we're not going to enforce it." doesn't reassure me much. Read the economist article posted yesterday about all the people in prison for pretty similar stuff.