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After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

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Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one way to reasonably do it. Otherwise, the benefit goes largely to the rent-seekers instead of the people you're trying to help. I suppose another way would be to issue restricted local currencies and non-transferable coupons or vouchers. That has the added benefit of creating a lot of paper-pushing bureaucracy jobs.

>I suppose another way would be to issue restricted local currencies and non-transferable coupons or vouchers. That has the added benefit of creating a lot of paper-pushing bureaucracy jobs. Isn't one of the main goals of BI to eliminate the "need" for bullshit jobs, though?

The bureaucracy will always need to create more of itself.

And it isn't always about the money, either. Sometimes the petits Napoleons just need to lord the tiny bit of power they have over those who don't even have that much.

My cynicism is bleeding through. The US government has a tendency to just throw money at a problem instead of actually doing something to solve it. Failing that, they throw on a half-assed patch that is only funded well enough to partially address the unintended consequences of the check-writing fix.

The only realistic way to keep BI out of the pockets of rent-seekers is to pay it as the basic necessities rather than as cash. Nobody will raise your rent from 20# of corn to 30# of corn, but they sure will raise it from $200 to $300. And the best way to do that is to hire people to produce the necessities directly. But congress is skittish about doing anything that looks too much like communism. Hence the vouchers. So they can control how things get done without actually doing anything.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of my right wing friends are the Ayn Rand kind and are deeply offended by the idea of paying other people to live.

Ask them whether they'd prefer UBI or the current system assuming both cost the same.

I did. It's a principle thing. That odd notion that if you can't feed yourself you don't deserve to be fed.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't give this advice often since for most people it's the "moving abroad" part that's the deal breaker, but since you mentioned you're doing it already, I'll throw out teaching english as a foreign language. Depending on the country/school you might need a small certificate from a month-long-type training course, or training from the school itself, but for the most part you just need to be able to speak English a…

I've done it part time in the past when I attempted this sort of desperation move that failed. It wasn't sustainable and took too much out of me being "switched on and sociable" like that. On top of that the barrier to entry even if I could manage is higher than people think...I dont have a bachelors degree and am old. Schools want young, degreed and flexible. If all you have is being a naive speaker you get private…

If you go international to someplace cheaper and with any kind of tech scene you may be able to find at least a bit of work assisting software developers with English for apps & sites. There may be a bunch of people able to do that, but "local and able to meet" may have a quality all its own (along with "willing to be paid local rates in local currency").

You say you don't have skills, but at the least you write and presumably speak good grammatically correct English. You might also have at least a little bit of still relevant domain knowledge from your previous career - it may not get you in the door in that industry, but it may open doors in related ones.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#304
post #179
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Rent seeking behavior, to extract more from tenants would be expected. This would spread. Causing other prices to rise.

There’s not going to be that much UBI to extract. Plus the assured UBI would empower people to move away from excise rent seekers.

Man, that's like trying to move to a state that has less nitrogen in its atmosphere. Rent-seekers are everywhere. If you go anywhere they currently are not, they will follow the scent of your wallet to wherever you end up.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#305
post #80

I cannot find it in my heart to admire the people who comment here proscriptively, without any attempt to signal empathy. Its understood few of us (myself included) will be doing anything to ameliorate this situation, and that empathy signalling is at best chest beating, but I still find the lack of compassion in the responses chilling. Yes, not smoking would reduce health risks and spend. so what? If you haven't tri…

It seems that you have an issue with beliefs that you assume people have, rather than a literal reading of what they stated. People generally interpret things much more negatively over text channels like email, than hearing the same thing in person, so I'd be cautious of such a negative take.

I agree. in substance, this is what the '84 RAND study said about imputed meaning in emails and flame wars. But, that said, there is a very definite trend in written discourse online about the poor: that trend is, to say they are only to blame themselves. We see it in 'fat people with diabetes who are poor caused it themselves' or 'if you stopped smoking you'd be healthier and richer' -both are true, but both are narrow, and un-empathetic statements. SO, I make a generalization which is perfectly capable of being wrong, but none the less I make it: the lack of visible empathy from people who make single-issue statements of 'self blame' for poor people, very probably implies a lack empathy. [edited]

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Undocumented immigrants" are not citizens being oppressed They're not citizens being oppressed, but they are human beings being oppressed. They're often fleeing war-torn countries and, by definition, have taken a proactive action to try to escape their circumstances and the poverty that they were born into. Your lack of compassion for them whilst simultaneously descrying people's lack of compassion for similarly i…

Pragmatism is not a lack of compassion. There are limits to everything.

You're the one calling out people for lack of compassion towards the poor people in the article. Who's to say that they haven't decided to focus on the immigrants in their own states over the plight of the poor in those other states. There's limits to everything, right? Why are you the only one that gets to draw the line between those who do and those who don't deserve pity? Why are you the one that gets to decide that citizens of a state that voted for the treatment they're receiving are more deserving of our help and compassion than illegal aliens in our own states?

Personally, when I compare someone that's come to a foreign country and fights to get by doing under-the-table manual labor with someone with an opiate addiction on government assistance, if I have to draw the line and help one and not the other, I'm helping the one that's making a positive contribution to the country instead of leeching off the government and voting for Republicans. I feel compassion for the plights of both groups, but if there are limits to everything and I've got to be pragmatic, well, I'm not spending my limited bandwidth caring about West Virginia. The Guatemalans fleeing the drug violence that's only engulfed their country because of the addictions and failed drug policies of the US are where I'm going to focus more of my compassion. They are the ones that I see on a daily basis and who's humanity is much harder for me to ignore.

Citizenship is artificial, especially in an era where companies will ship jobs to wherever offers the cheapest labor. Suffering is universal, whether it's the Central Americans that are living in poverty in California, the Syrian refugees that I saw begging in the streets of Malaysia during my time there or the opiate addicts of West Virginia. And I have very little patience for people who try to draw a line between Americans and foreigners because suffering is somehow the normal state of being for brown people.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pragmatism is not a lack of compassion. There are limits to everything.

You're the one calling out people for lack of compassion towards the poor people in the article. Who's to say that they haven't decided to focus on the immigrants in their own states over the plight of the poor in those other states. There's limits to everything, right? Why are you the only one that gets to draw the line between those who do and those who don't deserve pity? Why are you the one that gets to decide th…

> Why are you the only one that gets to draw the line between those who do and those who don't deserve pity?

All humans deserve pity. A country has limited resources, and must collectively decide (by its citizenry) how those resources are spent. Citizenship entitles you to a vote. That's democracy!

> Why are you the one that gets to decide that citizens of a state that voted for the treatment they're receiving are more deserving of our help and compassion than illegal aliens in our own states?

See democracy above. Citizenship entitles you to decide the direction, actions, and fate (ideally, not always) of your country.

> Citizenship is artificial, especially in an era where companies will ship jobs to wherever offers the cheapest labor.

Clearly citizenship is not artificial if we're arguing the merits of it, and people who don't have it want it, and are willing to break the law for a close substitute.

Good chat. We don't agree, but I enjoyed the discussion. Its always helpful to explore other viewpoints. Everyone wants to see the world a better place, its just the routes we argue over.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#308
post #94
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what do you do when the fish are just gone? Move to where the fish are. The economy isn't terrible everywhere.

It seems more practical to move the fish to where the people are.

You mean like, turn Appalachia into the Silicon Valley of the East?

This is an old idea, and implementations of it almost never work. It's usually because there's some other facet of "the fish" that is difficult to replicate somewhere else, and people do the replicating in some cargo-cult fashion.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#309
post #80

I cannot find it in my heart to admire the people who comment here proscriptively, without any attempt to signal empathy. Its understood few of us (myself included) will be doing anything to ameliorate this situation, and that empathy signalling is at best chest beating, but I still find the lack of compassion in the responses chilling. Yes, not smoking would reduce health risks and spend. so what? If you haven't tri…

If you blame the less fortunate for their misfortune, you can lie to yourself that it can never happen to you. Welfare? You would never need it because it is only the lazy stupid people who would rather mooch off others than do anything to better their lives would ever become so poor to need welfare.

Accepting that people can fall into poverty through no fault of their own is a crushing reality, as one would also have to accept that it can happen to them at any moment. Many choose to believe the comfortable lie rather than the uncomfortable truth.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. http://heyjackass.com/ Certainly not millions, but that's not something I'd be proud of. Nowhere in New Hampshire do people say "don't worry, its just certain parts that have all the violence."

I agree it's terrible and Chicago could do better but my point is if you really look at the number this stuff is blown way out of proportion. That's no comfort for those who are affected by it, but the odds of it happening to you even in a place like Chicago if you just take a few minor precautions are vanishingly small.

If they could do better, why aren't they?
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