After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America • Hacker News Board

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#271

Post by hestipod » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 9:25 PM UTC

occultist_throw wrote: post #256

hestipod wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how 99% of people are. I wouldn't have believed it until I became a victim. Even people who claim to love you and you have known for life. In the end people care about themselves and if you challenge their just-world view by suffering in front of them, or make them feel bad or guilty, they attack. The sad part is for those people nothing will change it but being forced into despair themselves and then it's to…

> This is how 99% of people are. I wouldn't have believed it until I became a victim. Even people who claim to love you and you have known for life. I used to be a republican. Or Libertarian. Blame my parents, as I do. They're dyed-in-the-wool republicans/christians, where if you have bad happen, you must have deserved it. So they dont help because you should be able to rescue yourself. One of their most shameful mom…

I have known people in more social countries that were able to regain a life because they had access to medical care, housing and reschooling. It takes years but it's possible IF you have that help. Those people are now contributing again and have independence even with their limits. If I had that available, if I had been born in such a place, I would have had a life back over a decade ago. But here I simply cannot manage everything. I have tried to immigrate but it takes 5-8 years of legal stability in most places just to become a permanent resident or citizen and have access to the benefits of such a system. I think I am just screwed. I will move and at best get some small under the table cash and at least accessing affordable healthcare in the private syste while hoping I don't get deported since I probably won't be able to formally legalize. It's not ideal at all but I simply cannot make it here anymore.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#272

Post by m777z » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 9:27 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #158

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And everyone is on social security disability. I spent several years during and after university hitchhiking all around the world. After seeing most of Europe, Asia, South America, and Africa, I had a general idea of what kind of people are driving around during the day. And then I traveled across the USA . It turns out that benefits cheats are a very distinct category there in a way they aren’t a thing in most oth…

Sham disability is an integral part of the US welfare system, because it's politically expedient. It allows the government to pay poor people just enough to avoid a violent revolution, while sidestepping the issue of the "deserving poor". It also conveniently conceals the real rate of unemployment - you can pretend that your unemployment rate is 4.2% if you've recategorised most of your long-term unemployed citizens…

This is one reason why employment/population ratio is probably a better measure of economic health than the unemployment rate.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#273

Post by amigoingtodie » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 9:29 PM UTC

greglindahl wrote: post #191

amigoingtodie wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a tough sell to take away an $80k/year job and replace it with slightly above minimum wage.

Solar array installation and wind farm maintenance pay pretty well: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/business/energy-environme...

The article had a quote that some starting coal mining salaries were up to $150k, but after a 2.5 year apprenticeship for solar install, workers can make $25/hr.

Better than minimum wage, but isn't it hard for somebody with a family to train for two years without a salary?

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#274

Post by amigoingtodie » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #172

amigoingtodie wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

West Virginia only has 5 electoral college votes.

Right, but they have a great votes/population ratio. Giving small states a voice is precisely why we have the current distribution of electoral votes.

'...great votes/population ratio'

Can you elaborate on that?

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#275

Post by fencepost » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 9:34 PM UTC

marak830 wrote: post #240

lazerpants wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any experience with actually being this poor and desperate? There's no way to dig yourself out of a pit like this with an extra $12 bucks a month...

I do. No that extra $12 won't help you get out, but God's be damned drinking myself stupid certainly didn't.(I tried drinking it, that certainly didn't help). What I did see, and realised more and more as I struggled, was that those few drinks was just an excuse for the people around me, to not do anything. Oh sure, when there was a bunch of us, they were rather elequent I. Their own way, about what they would do - t…

Three six packs is not really a whole lot of drinking for a month, and given lack of running water it could just as easily be a way to keep a beverage around that's probably cheaper than soft drinks. It's also the kind of thing that you can offer to a friend without saying "hang on let me go get the hose from my brother's house."

And I'm pretty sure the "Slim Jim" mentioned are room temperature shelf stable sausage sticks, individually packaged and probably handy for someone possibly with no refrigeration.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#276

Post by riot504 » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 9:34 PM UTC

vuln wrote: post #248

riot504 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did air traffic control at Balad. At that time it was considered one of the most complex and busiest air-spaces in the world, paraphrased from the president of O'Hare. Obviously, we didn't see combat or deal with life altering experiences but it was balls to the wall intense for 8 hours a day. At the time I even smoked a few Camels during breaks. Certainly a way to bond with a fellow controller during a break.

Thank you for your service. I did some time at good ol JBB in 08-09. This is when I first started smoking. First I was bumming here and there, then in order to not feel like a bum I bought a pack and slowly the pack would disappear faster and faster... I smoked for four years (At peak a pack a day) and gave it up cold turkey. Lots of wasted money.

I was there a year prior in the fall of 07. I rarely smoked, at most 1 - 3 a day and usually just when controlling - sometimes I didn't cause I hate the after smell.

Glad you were able to quit! Aside from health, the money certainly adds up.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#277

Post by amigoingtodie » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 9:35 PM UTC

bzbarsky wrote: post #182

amigoingtodie wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? A T-1 around that area is almost $700/mo. A 100Mbps symmetric connection is several thousand dollars per month.

Minumum wage in the US is $7.25/hr. In West Virginia specifically it's $8.75/hr. That means that a full-time minimum-wage employee in West Virginia costs about $1460/month (assuming they get paid for 50 weeks a year and take 2 weeks of unpaid vacation; if they get paid for 40 hours every week, that's $1517/month). That's just for their salary. Employers also have to pay half of the FICA tax (7.65%), unemployment taxe…

So, why would anybody want a call center in WV if bandwidth and minimum wage are more expensive than Florida, for instance?

...and all employees would pay state income tax

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#278

Post by johnvanommen » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 9:36 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #2

That is so depressing. No wonder suicide rates are up. You know there's a difference between "give a man a fish" and "teach a man to fish", but what do you do when the fish are just gone ? It was mentioned in the article, but not extensively discussed. I think maybe the largest distinct segment of the economy in ex-coalcountry regions is now pharmaceuticals, legal and illegal. There's the legal root and mushroom hunt…

That's a good point. I grew up poor as fuck, and there's a huge set of rules which incentivize poverty. For instance, if the family makes more than a certain amount, you lose health care.

So you wind up in a situation where you're basically discouraged from working.

I remember going to the dentist when I turned 18, and I was stunned to see the bill. I'd never seen a medical bill in my entire life.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#279

Post by alexanderstears » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 9:36 PM UTC

corpMaverick wrote: post #258

alexanderstears wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak for yourself, I care deeply about the less fortunate - I just don't think that the social safety net is well designed or cost effective and I think pouring more money into it will just incentivize preying on the people caught in the net. I think there are solid ways to help people but that usually means investment in them, rather than increased dependence on the system. I'd gladly chip in for this lady to get a…

I think the question is. Do you believe that we can have good government policies that can be improved overtime. Or do you just want to have the smallest possible government. Because the conversation in the right hasn't been about what policies are the best, it has been about getting rid of the government.

Hardly, the right fawns over the military and LEOs.

Most right wingers you would talk to (IRL - not on the internet that skews libertarian) are interested in cost effectiveness. Some of them say the current levels of 'quality' are alright and we should find ways to reduce the costs. Others say that we're spending enough but not getting good enough results.

I'd be fine with spending a lot more in welfare if the results were better. However, I would disagree with many left-wingers on what good results are. I think left wingers' ideal welfare state would be like a magical feeding trough, my ideal welfare state is one that invests in people so they can the State and humanity to the best of their abilities - if they stop serving the State and humanity, I think that merits less investment. A person who helps the less fortunate is more deserving of welfare than someone who plays WOW full time because they like crushing noobs.

I have no tolerance for young men who play video games in their parent's basement. If they have a disease, I'd chip in to help treat them. If they're just lazy, then that's on the parents who enable them. I'd also be concerned about pretending their personal failures are medical problems - which is one of the reasons I'm mostly opposed to SSI/SSD.

For people with gumption, we should try to find a way to make them productive. My pet proposal is to give these people priority for government jobs. DMV clerks can't such much more, we could at least give it to someone who's down on their luck. For people without gumption, I think we should put them on a nice beach and make sure they have food and access to basic health care.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#280

Post by patrickg_zill » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

The real shame in the article is that rent of $300 per month is being charged on an unimproved 10x20 shed, which you can buy for under $5k almost anywhere in rural and suburban areas.

Who set up that deal? How did they get a certificate of occupancy without a toilet?