After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America • Hacker News Board

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#171

Post by hpcjoe » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 6:27 PM UTC

SirRhosis wrote: post #60

hpcjoe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not awful over a short term. Over a longer term, it will price commodities out of reach. I've watched milk prices rise dramatically over the last 5 years or so. This is in part due to the costs of production rising, not necessarily the farm margins. These costs of production rise for any number of reasons, but mostly its because rising costs tend to spread out through the economy. [1] My point is that prices will…

Milk inflation is not that significant. Five dollars of milk in 2000 will cost you 6.51 USD today[0]. It's actually lower this year than it was in 2014[1]. [0] - http://www.in2013dollars.com/Milk/price-inflation [1] - https://ycharts.com/indicators/milk_price

Hmm ... not 3 years ago, the milk I currently pay $4/gallon for was selling for ~$3/gallon. Maybe outside of Michigan it is different.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#172

Post by Spivak » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 6:28 PM UTC

amigoingtodie wrote: post #109

thaumaturgy wrote: post #99

Logan County, West Virginia, where this article is set, voted 80% in favor of Trump, giving him 10,000 additional votes. [1] The entire state of West Virginia went to Trump. If Democrats want to change the current political landscape in this country, they might start by addressing some of these peoples' problems while they're campaigning on everyone else's problems too. Trump (and conservatives) aren't going to do a…

West Virginia only has 5 electoral college votes.

Right, but they have a great votes/population ratio. Giving small states a voice is precisely why we have the current distribution of electoral votes.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#173

Post by thaumaturgy » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 6:28 PM UTC

hpcjoe wrote: post #167

alexanderstears wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is - imagine how much better off these people would be if they spent less on fuel - $50 in gas on a $750 monthly budget is proportionally near what I spend on RENT with my (pre-tax) salary. I'm not sure coal can compete with fracking so the coal jobs are moot.

Coal was viable as a fuel until a few years ago. Then the environmental regulations hit full force, and forced many of these companies under. I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but worth repeating. Decisions have consequences. Deciding that you will enforce a particular tax/regulation policy based upon perceived (real or otherwise) environmental harm means that the people who depend upon those industries for their…

I think you're making a lot of good points here, but:

> Coal is still cheaper...

This is only true when you socialize the long-term costs incurred by coal. Regulation is an attempt to push some of those costs back onto the companies that incur them, and then it turns out that coal isn't so cheap after all.

I suppose that since "regulation" is becoming a dirty word in politics, and especially with the influence from fringe libertarians, we could instead provide government-funded lawyers to sue any coal-producing company on behalf of any individual or community that can provide any evidence that coal production harmed them in some way. We could set up expedited courts for it and allow any coal-producing company to be litigated against even if they weren't directly responsible for the injury, and remove the other various loopholes that massive environment-exploiting companies use to make money at the expense of people's health.

Then, there wouldn't regulations, and coal would still be expensive.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#174

Post by hpcjoe » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 6:29 PM UTC

djrogers wrote: post #49

ianai wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. Inflation isn’t the outright awful thing people assume it is. Further, the concept is to give people just enough to survive. That creates demand for only the basics. The basics are largely standardized items. When was the last time there was a shortage in corn, cotton, flour? They’re all commodities. If anything modern prices for these goods and services are likely to be indifferent to the increase in dema…

> The basics are largely standardized items. Do you think that if everyone in that story got a $2k BI check that the huts they live in would continue to rent for $300? Doubtful - very doubtful.

Exactly. Rent seeking behavior, to extract more from tenants would be expected. This would spread. Causing other prices to rise.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#175

Post by ianai » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 6:31 PM UTC

hpcjoe wrote: post #21

ianai wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. Inflation isn’t the outright awful thing people assume it is. Further, the concept is to give people just enough to survive. That creates demand for only the basics. The basics are largely standardized items. When was the last time there was a shortage in corn, cotton, flour? They’re all commodities. If anything modern prices for these goods and services are likely to be indifferent to the increase in dema…

Its not awful over a short term. Over a longer term, it will price commodities out of reach. I've watched milk prices rise dramatically over the last 5 years or so. This is in part due to the costs of production rising, not necessarily the farm margins. These costs of production rise for any number of reasons, but mostly its because rising costs tend to spread out through the economy. [1] My point is that prices will…

Econ 101 should not use milk as a case study.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#176

Post by amigoingtodie » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 6:32 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #160

amigoingtodie wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? A T-1 around that area is almost $700/mo. A 100Mbps symmetric connection is several thousand dollars per month.

A call center will spend $700/month on toilet paper. It's no big deal.

On 24 employees?

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#177

Post by rbanffy » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 6:34 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #166

pavel_lishin wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure why this is an article. This is just normal life in many parts of rural America from Pennsylvania to Washington to Arizona. Plenty of people have no idea that there are people living like this in America.

This is true. Whenever I see people on TV or the internet or wherever raising money for clean water and basic sanitation or basic electricity in other parts of the world, I think about the THOUSANDS of homes I've seen in West Virginia, Tennessee, and especially Texas that lack water, toilets, and electricity. Somehow America's dirt poor aren't as exciting or trendy as the exotic overseas dirt poor.

> Somehow America's dirt poor aren't as exciting or trendy as the exotic overseas dirt poor.

It's not that poverty is exciting. It's that abject poverty in the richest country on Earth is shocking and goes against assumptions people had as correct since ever.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#178

Post by riot504 » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 6:35 PM UTC

Caveman_Coder wrote: post #141

riot504 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I view smoking as a kind of break from life. It has a calming effect. Many people smoked during my deployments to Iraq for the same reason - it calms you and allows a simple break otherwise not found. I don't smoke as the smell gives me a terrible headache but I understand the reasoning - particularly when life is hard.

> "I view smoking as a kind of break from life. It has a calming effect. Many people smoked during my deployments to Iraq for the same reason - it calms you and allows a simple break otherwise not found. .." I found this to be the same reason why many of my fellow shipmates smoked during my time in the Navy. It was a kind of pre-watch "bonding" session of sorts...We'd smoke our cigs, grab a quick bite from the galley…

I did air traffic control at Balad. At that time it was considered one of the most complex and busiest air-spaces in the world, paraphrased from the president of O'Hare. Obviously, we didn't see combat or deal with life altering experiences but it was balls to the wall intense for 8 hours a day. At the time I even smoked a few Camels during breaks. Certainly a way to bond with a fellow controller during a break.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#179

Post by ianai » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 6:39 PM UTC

hpcjoe wrote: post #174

djrogers wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The basics are largely standardized items. Do you think that if everyone in that story got a $2k BI check that the huts they live in would continue to rent for $300? Doubtful - very doubtful.

Exactly. Rent seeking behavior, to extract more from tenants would be expected. This would spread. Causing other prices to rise.

There’s not going to be that much UBI to extract. Plus the assured UBI would empower people to move away from excise rent seekers.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#180

Post by CryptoPunk » Fri, Oct 06, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

whipoodle wrote: post #75

leggomylibro wrote: post #41

>because disability payments on average amount to less than minimum wage, sometimes much less, ... Why is this? How are these people expected to survive, if they are disabled to the point that they can't hold down a job, and aren't allowed to work without the risk of losing their disability payments? Busking? I know that's been one traditional job for disabled people over the centuries, but I feel like we should be a…

We spent the last few decades dismantling whatever shambles of a social safety net we had, and we don't give a shit about people who can't afford to live. We say "get a job", and we just don't care.

>>We spent the last few decades dismantling whatever shambles of a social safety net we had

The empirical evidence would suggest the opposite:

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2013/01/16/us/politics/16fiv...