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After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

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Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#111

Post by 549362-30499 »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #99

Logan County, West Virginia, where this article is set, voted 80% in favor of Trump, giving him 10,000 additional votes. [1] The entire state of West Virginia went to Trump. If Democrats want to change the current political landscape in this country, they might start by addressing some of these peoples' problems while they're campaigning on everyone else's problems too. Trump (and conservatives) aren't going to do a…

Clinton did campaign on a jobs and retraining program specifically for these people. But how can you compete with someone saying they'll hand-wave away your problems and return your old way of life?

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#112

Post by seem_2211 »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #86
24gttghh wrote: post #6

> She lit a home-rolled cigarette and, getting to work with a mattock, tried to ignore the weather. She had lately been telling herself that she had to stop taking these risks. They were more than an hour from the nearest hospital, and what if she had another heart attack? Yeah...she seems to be ignoring the heart-attack risk she is pumping into her lungs while she says that. I get that it's an addiction that is hard…

This kind of sentiment is exactly why more liberals need to read more articles like this one. If you've never lived that life, it's easy to sit back and proclaim for someone else how much better things might be for them if only they didn't do things the way they do. It makes it easy to dismiss their problems as entirely their own fault while we get to feel good about giving out some solid advice. Those cigarettes and…

If we were honest, we'd find it very difficult to properly condemn the spending habits of the poor. I spent $20 on breakfast today for goodness sakes - that's probably more discretionary income than a lot of these folks have for a month. But that $20 of mine isn't really going to be missed, because I have a job that pays me an order of magnitude more than these folks earn. $700 a month to live on? That's what, 2 weeks rent for a single room in San Francisco.

At a root level, living brings on a level of expenses. It varies from place to place, but no matter how frugal you are, there are some expenses you simply can't run from. Once you've passed that level, it's easy to save.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#113

Post by vkou »

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #83
vkou wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If debts would never be forgiven/default, then lenders would not be able to charge interest. Likewise, while they don't charge interest, contractors factor not getting paid for 90 days after work completion into their rates.

What? If you had a 100% guarantee of getting your money back next year, would you loan me all of your savings for this year? You will receive no other compensation for lending me this money. If debts were never forgiven, maybe interest rates would be lower , but lenders are still providing a service for which an interest rate must be paid.

I would, at the interest rate at which new money is being printed. It would be a better investment then keeping it in my savings account, with it's 0.05% interest, that's for sure.

Unfortunately, nobody loans money at that rate. They always charge a premium.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#114

Post by noworld »

wan23 wrote: post #69
forkandwait wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am amazed by the pervasiveness of the assumption that most of the human race is inherently just too stupid to become upper middle like us.

It's not stupidity, it's a combination of factors. 1) Lack of knowledge of options. Let's say you wanted to get into the oil business. Without Googling anything, what job would you want? What skills and credentials would you need to acquire to get that job? How would you go about getting those? 2) Lack of education - Imagine trying to learn how to program without knowing what variables are. And then let's say you str…

1) Without googling anything, I'd need... presentable clothes, good hygiene, and to be able to make sense when I talk and respond sensibly to questions. Get into the oil business? Everyone's got a mail room, janitorial staff, etc. Get a job doing that and show them that you can show up for work on time and do a good job at the mundane stuff with a friendly attitude, no complaining, and not causing drama. That goes a LONG way. The other items follow this one.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#115

Post by dragonwriter »

ams6110 wrote: post #77
danans wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Giving money directly to people may help for a while, but is likely to spark inflation, I take it you are referring to Universal Basic Income. It would only cause inflation if the most of the goods in their basket of unmet needs were supply constrained. But those commodities (i.e household goods), are not supply constrained at all, due in no small part to industrial efficiency and globalization, so they likely won'…

The biggest unmet need is housing, and in most areas that is definitely supply constrained. UBI will just go right into landlords pockets.

> The biggest unmet need is housing, and in most areas that is definitely supply constrained.

Outside of places like San Francisco (urban areas with strong political resistance to redevelopment and geography which limits nearby alternatives), that's a tolerable approximation of truth only over very short terms, as increases market clearing costs for housing spur investment and (re)development elsewhere.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#116

Post by irrational »

refurb wrote: post #43
leggomylibro wrote: post #41

>because disability payments on average amount to less than minimum wage, sometimes much less, ... Why is this? How are these people expected to survive, if they are disabled to the point that they can't hold down a job, and aren't allowed to work without the risk of losing their disability payments? Busking? I know that's been one traditional job for disabled people over the centuries, but I feel like we should be a…

Disability is often done on a percentage basis. If you're completely unable to work you get 100%. If you can't stand for a long time, but can sit and work, you might get 30% disability. Even at 100% it's not a lot of money, but I've heard it's enough to exist.

So, UBI is basically like being on 100% disability?

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#117

Post by amigoingtodie »

noworld wrote: post #100

"...went to the already-crowded Dollar Store and Dollar General and bought dog food, dog treats, Slim Jims, three six-packs of Milwaukee’s Best, pruners for digging roots and a backpack to carry it all. What was the point in saving when, even if she could scrape together every free dollar, it would never be enough to change her life? So she bought the beer she had looked forward to, enjoyed its release and, as she di…

So, if she kept the beer, she could 'get out of it'?

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#118

Post by alexanderstears »

whipoodle wrote: post #75
leggomylibro wrote: post #41

>because disability payments on average amount to less than minimum wage, sometimes much less, ... Why is this? How are these people expected to survive, if they are disabled to the point that they can't hold down a job, and aren't allowed to work without the risk of losing their disability payments? Busking? I know that's been one traditional job for disabled people over the centuries, but I feel like we should be a…

We spent the last few decades dismantling whatever shambles of a social safety net we had, and we don't give a shit about people who can't afford to live. We say "get a job", and we just don't care.

Speak for yourself, I care deeply about the less fortunate - I just don't think that the social safety net is well designed or cost effective and I think pouring more money into it will just incentivize preying on the people caught in the net.

I think there are solid ways to help people but that usually means investment in them, rather than increased dependence on the system. I'd gladly chip in for this lady to get a solar panel and battery, or a waterless toilet, or microhouse, or access to cheaper fuel.

There's some pro-liberty stuff that would be great for the working poor:

* less emissions laws on vehicles - it'd be cheaper to make fuel efficient vehicles at the expense of some NOX emissions

* fewer zoning laws - it'd make micro housing more accessible

* fewer renewable energy laws / less protectionism on solar - make off-grid systems more appealing

A $10k investment in this lady's life would dramatically alter it. It would give her a toilet, better housing, and energy.

Conversely, giving her an extra $100 or so per month might just go to beer and cigs so she can deal with how crappy her life is and doesn't really give her enough to get ahead.

And that line about her brother having a quadruple bypass is icing on the cake. How much do you think we spent on that? 120k? We should keep the expenditures the same but give people a choice on how to spend it. Maybe the brother would have rolled the dice with Indian quality of care (i.e a 10k surgery) and split the savings with him - give him 50k cash for saving public money.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#119

Post by thehardsphere »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #20
logfromblammo wrote: post #2

That is so depressing. No wonder suicide rates are up. You know there's a difference between "give a man a fish" and "teach a man to fish", but what do you do when the fish are just gone ? It was mentioned in the article, but not extensively discussed. I think maybe the largest distinct segment of the economy in ex-coalcountry regions is now pharmaceuticals, legal and illegal. There's the legal root and mushroom hunt…

> And everyone is on social security disability. I spent several years during and after university hitchhiking all around the world. After seeing most of Europe, Asia, South America, and Africa, I had a general idea of what kind of people are driving around during the day. And then I traveled across the USA . It turns out that benefits cheats are a very distinct category there in a way they aren’t a thing in most oth…

> unlike certain countries that heavily fund culture in rural areas so that perpetually unemployed people have [places] to spend their time at productively

Could you cite examples of what countries these are who pursue these policies for the stated objective of giving poor people things to do while not working? I've never heard of this as a policy objective before for subsidizing libraries and "culture", and I am very curious about how well it works.

Re: After the check is gone: The underground economy of rural America

#120

Post by noworld »

amigoingtodie wrote: post #117
noworld wrote: post #100

"...went to the already-crowded Dollar Store and Dollar General and bought dog food, dog treats, Slim Jims, three six-packs of Milwaukee’s Best, pruners for digging roots and a backpack to carry it all. What was the point in saving when, even if she could scrape together every free dollar, it would never be enough to change her life? So she bought the beer she had looked forward to, enjoyed its release and, as she di…

So, if she kept the beer, she could 'get out of it'?

Is that what you got out of my post? Really?
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