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iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

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Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#271

Post by darklajid »

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

50 (SG, less than USD) dollars. 24 GB of data.

Can we make sure that we're talking about the same thing? Can we compare global data prices? What are you basing your assumption on?

Talking about assumptions: My assumption is that people that buy a recent/new iPhone either

a) get it with a (reasonably sized) contract and have enough data

b) have a bit of disposable income to pay for data for all these places where you might need it

Another fun assumption: Basically ~nowhere~ (not true ofc, but we're both generalizing) in Germany you have hotspots or free wifi. Why would a phone need constant wifi, if you only ever connect it at home, mayyyyyybe at work?

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#272

Post by jsjohnst »

nindalf wrote: post #191
jsjohnst wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At this point I’m not sure there’s a need for normal users to actually turn off Wi-Fi. Or anyone who doesn’t want to be tracked by random retailers. I worked for one such company, so I know intimately how it works, including how MAC address randomization doesn’t actually work in the real world at completely obscuring your device.

Does this work even if my device newer connects to the retailer's "free" WiFi?

It makes it trivially simple if you did connect, but even if you don’t, just having the Wi-Fi radio on is enough.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#273

Post by feld »

digi_owl wrote: post #69
davb wrote: post #39

In general, iOS isn’t very friendly to users who favour 3G/4G over WiFi. I’ve got unlimited data on my LTE plan but very shaky WiFi at home. I can’t start an iCloud backup without WiFi and can’t download apps or updates over a certain size. And now WiFi miraculously turns itself back on after I turn it off in Control Center (as I’ve done for some time). If I want it off I’ve got to dig through Settings. Changing defa…

Sadly the default assumption in IT these days is "users are dumb sheep". Its not just Apple or Google, MS is doing it as well, and I see more and more of it in the FOSS world.

Because they are. Step out of your IT bubble.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#274

Post by micael_dias »

jachee wrote: post #162
davb wrote: post #39

In general, iOS isn’t very friendly to users who favour 3G/4G over WiFi. I’ve got unlimited data on my LTE plan but very shaky WiFi at home. I can’t start an iCloud backup without WiFi and can’t download apps or updates over a certain size. And now WiFi miraculously turns itself back on after I turn it off in Control Center (as I’ve done for some time). If I want it off I’ve got to dig through Settings. Changing defa…

> If I want it off I’ve got to dig through Settings. Or just say "Hey Siri, turn off WiFi."

"Disconnected from 'WiFiNetwork'"

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#275

Post by andrewingram »

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

Ironically, the UI they added for hotspots (which has a similar off-ish setting) actually cost me money, and resulted in several days without internet.

Essentially, i've left tethering on more times accidentally than ever before since upgrading to iOS 11, and used up my entire data allowance without realising it.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#276

Post by matwood »

firebolt327 wrote: post #51
MBCook wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It IS communicated. If you just pull up control center and tap the button is says “Disconnected from ‘WiFiNetwork’”. If you expand the panel with 3D Touch or a long press under the WiFi icon it either says WiFiName or Not Connected. On the other hand the cellular radio says Off if you toggle it. This isn’t completely hidden. The information is there. And I agree with the other posters that this is a far better settin…

This is not communicated and is completely bogus, do you expect users to "expand" the panel and read carefully the small text under which says "Not connected" and map it to, "hey this is me Apple, royally screwing with you, even though you wanted to turn off Wifi, and you just did that, I won't turn it off, I am gonna lie to you and keep eating your battery till your phone die" That's exactly what happened to me when…

While I agree that the UI is a bit subtle in the difference, Apple isn't trying to screw anyone. If you're really trying to save battery life, Airplane mode is the way to go. It totally turns off the wifi and the LTE radio (which is very battery draining).

I like this change because when I turn just wifi off it was always because of an acting up network. Now that I don't have to remember to turn it back on is a good thing. My guess is that Apple has a lot of data, and found that this behavior is what most people want.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#277

Post by morganvachon »

evolve2017 wrote: post #269
morganvachon wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, long-press on non 3D touch devices opens the same box.

This is patently false (I have just done the very thing you said, then confirmed that the wifi was in fact still on ). I think this whole argument just lends more support to the idea that Apple is being deceptive with this UI.

It's not false that a long press on a non-3D touch device opens the same box as using 3D touch on a device that supports it.

However, after all the feedback here I did some testing and it appears the GP was wrong: The submenu obtained by 3D touch/long-press doesn't actually turn WiFi off. My apologies for repeating his claim without backing it up.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#278

Post by morganvachon »

joshuakarjala wrote: post #258
morganvachon wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"offering the option to actually turn the services off." I'm not getting into the rest of your discussion, but I think you completely missed that you can indeed actually turn them off via 3D touch. Even on non-3D touch devices like the iPad mini, you can get to the "actually off" toggles by long-pressing the icons. Sure, it's somewhat of an extra step, but it's misleading to claim that the option doesn't exist when i…

no you can't - or please step-by-step explain how you achieve this

After all the feedback here I did some testing and it appears the GP was wrong: The submenu obtained by 3D touch/long-press doesn't actually turn WiFi off. My apologies for repeating his claim without backing it up.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#279

Post by morganvachon »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #190
beager wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3D touch and long-press are such awful places to bury any sort of functionality. There are no visual cues, no material cues, and the only way you'd know about those things are to watch Apple keynotes. How hard would it have been to emulate what they did with f.lux, I mean Night Shift and say "Bluetooth, off until 5am (tap for more options)" or "Wi-Fi, off at this location (tap for more options)"

Not to mention that 3D Touch isn’t available on all currently sold models.

There's nothing magical about 3D touch. Assuming you have iOS 10 or greater, you can achieve the same results on older devices with a long press on the screen. The only thing I've found 3D touch to handle differently between newer and older devices is moving icons on the springboard.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#280

Post by morganvachon »

comex wrote: post #79
morganvachon wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"offering the option to actually turn the services off." I'm not getting into the rest of your discussion, but I think you completely missed that you can indeed actually turn them off via 3D touch. Even on non-3D touch devices like the iPad mini, you can get to the "actually off" toggles by long-pressing the icons. Sure, it's somewhat of an extra step, but it's misleading to claim that the option doesn't exist when i…

You can? On my phone, deep pressing on the 'block' in Control Center containing the Wi-Fi icon gets me to a submenu, which adds text labels to the existing toggles and adds two more toggles (AirDrop and Personal Hotspot). However, pressing the Wi-Fi button from that submenu seems to have the same effect as outside of it, and deep pressing it (as well as long pressing it) has no effect. edit: but you can definitely tu…

As I said elsewhere, I repeated the GP's claim without testing it myself, assuming good faith on his part. After testing I found it wasn't true. Unfortunately I can't edit my original comment now, so I've been apologizing throughout the thread.
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