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iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

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Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#151

Post by musage »

neotek wrote: post #122
clouddrover wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That it's ridiculous. Reread what I have written. I made no comment on what the majority of iOS users do. I'm talking about what I do.

I'm sorry but you absolutely did. You were asked whether you "accept that [turning off mobile data, wifi, and bluetooth and only re-enabling them when you explicitly need them] is a ridiculously small minority use case", to which you replied "I don't accept that", and then followed on with a non sequitur about it being a "common sense approach."

"shit has to taste good, millions of flies eat it every day"

"I don't accept that."

Addressing the strongest possible reading and all that.

> a non sequitur about it being a "common sense approach."

Just read "common sense approach" as "that makes sense to me" and it fits perfectly. As for common sense, ask random people on the street what they think turning something "off" means. Do you think you'll find even ONE person who says "oh, that probably means it'll stay off until I change location, or until 5 AM, whatever comes sooner?". That's the elephant on the couch.

The use case of what you or most would find convenient, and would prefer to have available with one touch instead of more, is completely orthogonal to what all of this is about -- the common sense of what any normal person who isn't bent on defending Apple just because would respond with 1000 times out of 1000: of how to read UI in this case. Consider it a use case for the UI, and to even suggest just one person actually has the use case you declare to be such a majority they must be catered to without any further investigation (e.g. if the majority is wrong, that should strengthen, not weaken your resolve) truly is ridiculous.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#153

Post by cassowary »

stephen_g wrote: post #121
vacri wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple changed the behaviour of something that people have been using since the first smartphone (before, even), without indicating that to the user. Saying that the option is there when it's poorly-discoverable doesn't really counter the GP's point.

I think there is a valid point that while this is changing what is happening under the hood, the behaviour is effectively identical for the vast majority of users, and arguably improved for most use cases (most non-technical users wouldn't understand that that switch would stop airdrop working, and even as an extremely technical user I have accidentally forgotten to switch my WiFi back on after needing to temporarily…

Honestly I don't think it's effectively identical for the vast majority of users.

Every single time I've wanted to turn off Wifi and Bluetooth, it's because I know I'm going to struggle to get my battery to last till I can charge it again. I'm going to be out and on the move, so Wifi has no value to me except as a battery drain.

In fact, I struggle to think of any other ordinary use for disabling Wifi and Bluetooth. The real exceptions are like (I have this one now) I don't have ADSL at home but I haven't been bothered to turn off the modem or my mate who's paranoid of being stalked by companies. But those are exceptional. I wouldn't write a feature to deal with them. Except to keep the battery going, who turns wifi off?

It sounds like I've lost a real feature and I don't know how to get it back any more. If I want to be able to send and receive data but I want my phone to last all day[], what can I do?

[]: NB. The only reason I want my phone to last all day is because I want to use it. Consequently, saying "my phone lasts all day no problem" isn't an answer. You probably don't use your phone like I do.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#154

Post by IBM »

jonahx wrote: post #133
IBM wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. This support document explains the change and how it all works in-depth for anyone who will actually care to know (everyone who reads HN or tech blogs and pretty much no one else).

> The UI informs the user directly that they're disconnecting from a network. I'm honestly confused... Do you really believe that most users have distinct concepts in their mental model for "wifi off" and "disconnected from a network"? They look at the button, it's not blue anymore, it's off. Then later they think... "Wait how did this randomly turn on again?" I believe this will be the experience even of the majorit…

Most users when turning "off" Wi-Fi, particularly from the control center, are doing so to get them off whatever network they're on. What their mental model is for what "Wi-Fi off" is doesn't matter because the user shouldn't be responsible for managing the radios in their phone. And any of them that do try to are probably under the impression that it saves them battery life, when it actually doesn't (unless connected and transmitting).

The new control center behaves in the way that most people actually use the buttons. More importantly it solves a major problem in that it no longer requires the user to know what radios need to be on for various features they use to work. Apple probably has all the support call stats they need to decide this was a better behavior.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#155

Post by siculars »

Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

That’s straight garbage town. There are other ways to remind users that their WiFi is off than tricking users into thinking it is off when it really isn’t. Standard “engineers know best” mentality. Off means off. As in the opposite of on. This nonsense feeds into people (rightful) distrust of technology.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#156

Post by lathiat »

siculars wrote: post #155
Terretta wrote: post #6

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhil…

That’s straight garbage town. There are other ways to remind users that their WiFi is off than tricking users into thinking it is off when it really isn’t. Standard “engineers know best” mentality. Off means off. As in the opposite of on. This nonsense feeds into people (rightful) distrust of technology.

I'm a generally well educated person in both security, radios, etc. I can tell you that the control Centre Wi-Fi is basically always used by me to disconnect from the current network. And it persistently infuriated me when I would later forget and was on mobile data.

I can also see users frequently being confused by things like their Apple Pencil not working.

I love this change. You can still turn it off properly in settings. I generally trust Apple with frequent and speedy security updates. Their security track record is industry leading. I'm not remotely concerned.

Also most of the time people tell me they want this option they really mean they want to save battery life. I'd suggest just using low power mode for that, it's what it's designed for.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#157

Post by rebuilder »

kfriede wrote: post #145
cassowary wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hidden feature isn't communicated. I don't know why features are going to do something weird if I short click vs long click. There's simply no communication. Maybe some shadow (3D) effect on something which you can 3D touch would make a huge difference. (It's probably ugly, but the feature itself is ugly, so you'd expect the UI should reflect that.) A right click menu was considered a hidden feature by Apple in the…

It's more than a hidden feature though. Pressing the wifi button (where you would normally expect it to turn the radio off) literally brings up a text saying "Disconnected from {SSID}"

And if I turned off wifi, I'd expect the device to disconnect from amy networks, so that messaage doesn't really tell me much if I don't already know its significance.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#158

Post by cassowary »

jwong_ wrote: post #108
dvcrn wrote: post #23

I hate this. I have a ton of wifi hotspots setup in the city, some of them require authentication, some of them don't. I leave work, mount my phone on my bike, "turn off" WiFi and cycle before realizing that nothing (like maps) is updating because I connected to a wifi point that needs authentication, or a point that is now far away because I already cycled by. While cycling, I reach to my phone and switch it "off" a…

If you want to be off wifi why not just fully turn it off? It seems like you want it to be off for a long time. Going into settings to turn off the radio doesn't seem to be hugely laborious if you really do want it off for the entire ride.

That's a really silly reply. There's nothing in the UI that tells me turning Wifi off in the control centre has a different meaning today than it had last week. It's not at all clear that turning it off in the Settings app will have a different result. Literally. You're obliging us to read someone's mind.

Moreover, going to the Settings app is laborious. There's a lot of stuff there. When you open it, you don't always "start from the start", so that pulling it up requires working out where it is in the app you are in order to navigate appropriately. Instead of focusing on the task of disabling wifi and going somewhere, you have to focus on the task of navigating an app. And also if you have a phone that wasn't bought yesterday, it will probably close some other app you were running because it's run out of RAM.

All so that some weird usecase I can't understand is available. This fellow is the only person who's described a usecase for disconnecting from wifi networks while leaving wifi on, insofar as leaving the radio on won't have upsetting results for him. But the feature doesn't work for him.

For me, sometimes I need my battery to last all day not just till dinner. I want the radio off.

I can't think of a non-technical/non-exceptional use that is benefited by this feature.

(NB. I quite like the idea that my wifi will spontaneously turn back on again when the battery is charged adequately, or at 5am or some such. It would've saved my data on numerous occasions. But that's a different feature that hasn't been implemented.)

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#159

Post by hesarenu »

davb wrote: post #39

In general, iOS isn’t very friendly to users who favour 3G/4G over WiFi. I’ve got unlimited data on my LTE plan but very shaky WiFi at home. I can’t start an iCloud backup without WiFi and can’t download apps or updates over a certain size. And now WiFi miraculously turns itself back on after I turn it off in Control Center (as I’ve done for some time). If I want it off I’ve got to dig through Settings. Changing defa…

Apple (and Google, in their own way) seem to think they can push users towards a lowest common denominator use case. It just doesn’t work. - But this is not that case though. My non tech friends expect the wifi to off when its off. That would be the lowest common denominator.

Re: iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

#160

Post by cassowary »

ianamartin wrote: post #99
wildmusings wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way I've run every smartphone I've owned is to turn off mobile data, WiFi, and Bluetooth and only turn them on as and when I need them Okay, but you have to accept that this is a ridiculously small minority use case.

Wow. This exchange is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen on HN. I'm kind of fascinated to hear from people who spend money on things only to disable all of the things that make the thing worth spending money on. If someone tried to tell me that the default behavior of a product should be to not function, I think I would go through the roof.

That isn't fair. My microwave "doesn't work" until I press some buttons. I leave my bluetooth, wifi and data on most days because I have bluetooth headphones and I want people to be able to send me messages and stuff. Sometimes I turn them off to get the battery to last longer. It seems like it could be quite reasonable for a large group of non-technical users to be quite happy with a phone that turns off the radios when the screen is off.
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