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HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

prisonism.co.uk

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Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#81

Post by bogomipz »

thanatropism wrote: post #72
creviere wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that most offenders of what are typically seen as 'minor' or 'victimless' crimes are actually guilty of more serious crimes, but for whatever reason cannot be caught or prosecuted?

He's saying that minor crimes are the element of indeterminacy that gives the legal system wiggle room to dole out arbitrary punishment when actual circumstances almost, but not fully warrant normal punishment. A classic example is Al Capone caught for tax evasion. A more recent one is OJ Simpson jailed for some break-and-entering bullshit because everyone wants to punish him for those famous murders.

>" A more recent one is OJ Simpson jailed for some break-and-entering bullshit because everyone wants to punish him for those famous murders."

I'm sorry "breaking and entering bullshit"?

The crime was armed robbery and kidnapping. And it was OJ Simpson who said that nobody could leave the room which brought up the kidnapping charge. All of this actually happened. Nobody disputes these claims. Nothing to do with breaking and entering but much more serious crimes.[1]

If a family member of yours was robbed in their hotel room at gun point would it still be "bullshit"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simpson_robbery_case

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#82

Post by MistahKoala »

jdietrich wrote: post #23
hackermailman wrote: post #8

Interesting system where you can bring your own things to prison instead of being forced to buy 300% price increased items from the prison commissary in N. America like clothing, fans, radios. System here is very different in other ways such as being in a 200+ inmate dorm is the standard instead of cells, and there's dozens of rules set by inmates none of which were in this guide. You also get a 'prison consultant' i…

The British prison system became increasingly chaotic during the 1980s, culminating in the notorious 25-day riot in Strangeways prison in 1990. The response was a five-month public enquiry led by Lord Woolf that prompted major reform throughout the prison system. Perhaps the most important single change was the introduction of the Incentives and Earned Privileges scheme. Woolf recognised something that seems obvious…

I'd lay the blame more specifically at Chris Grayling's feet, rather than the Government as a whole. How far he got I don't know, but Michael Gove was addressing IEPs when he took over as Justice Secretary. I felt it was a real shame to have lost him from that role.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#83

Post by geofft »

cm2187 wrote: post #74
geofft wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Probably"? If we're going to deny people the most fundamental human rights, we need a bit more rational reasoning than "probably".

The most fundamental human rights are to be able to live without suffering what the guys that are in these prisons do to the society. Living without fear of violence, rape, murder, being burglarized, conned, etc. These are human rights. Merely keeping someone in a cell is a rather gentle treatment compared to how other cultures or other times treat/treated criminals. Now we can discuss sentence lengths, prison senten…

Living without fear of being conned is a human right??

I can buy that living without fear of murder or rape or even theft is a human right (we have a right to life, liberty, and property). I can even buy that locking con men away is desirable from the point of view of improving society as a whole. But raising that to the level of a human right seems much.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#85

Post by cm2187 »

geofft wrote: post #83
cm2187 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most fundamental human rights are to be able to live without suffering what the guys that are in these prisons do to the society. Living without fear of violence, rape, murder, being burglarized, conned, etc. These are human rights. Merely keeping someone in a cell is a rather gentle treatment compared to how other cultures or other times treat/treated criminals. Now we can discuss sentence lengths, prison senten…

Living without fear of being conned is a human right?? I can buy that living without fear of murder or rape or even theft is a human right (we have a right to life, liberty, and property). I can even buy that locking con men away is desirable from the point of view of improving society as a whole. But raising that to the level of a human right seems much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_property

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#86

Post by geofft »

cm2187 wrote: post #85
geofft wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living without fear of being conned is a human right?? I can buy that living without fear of murder or rape or even theft is a human right (we have a right to life, liberty, and property). I can even buy that locking con men away is desirable from the point of view of improving society as a whole. But raising that to the level of a human right seems much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_property

Yes, as I said in my comment, property is commonly recognized as a human right.

Nothing in that Wikipedia article says anything about being conned or deceived out of your property, and my question is whether a right to not be conned can be derived from that right. Do I have a fundamental human right to hold onto my property even if I am making a decision to give it up that other people think is unsound? Does that right prevent me from giving up my property? (There are, in general, rights that prevent you from doing things - for instance, I'd say that the right to liberty prevents you from consenting indefinitely to authoritarian government. Is this one of them?) Or do I have a fundamental human right to do with my property as I wish, and a right to not have my decisions second-guessed by the government?

For example, several jurisdictions believe that I cannot give up all copyright claims to some software I write, and that whatever I do, I maintain a "moral right" or "author's right" to the software, and even if I want to promise someone that they can literally do whatever with the software, the laws prevent me from doing that. I think this is a violation of my liberty, but clearly the people writing the laws think that I am being conned.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#87

Post by thanatropism »

bogomipz wrote: post #81
thanatropism wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's saying that minor crimes are the element of indeterminacy that gives the legal system wiggle room to dole out arbitrary punishment when actual circumstances almost, but not fully warrant normal punishment. A classic example is Al Capone caught for tax evasion. A more recent one is OJ Simpson jailed for some break-and-entering bullshit because everyone wants to punish him for those famous murders.

>" A more recent one is OJ Simpson jailed for some break-and-entering bullshit because everyone wants to punish him for those famous murders." I'm sorry "breaking and entering bullshit"? The crime was armed robbery and kidnapping. And it was OJ Simpson who said that nobody could leave the room which brought up the kidnapping charge. All of this actually happened. Nobody disputes these claims. Nothing to do with break…

I saw a tv show that presented those facts, yes. It also features the Goldman family celebrating that he got any kind of jail time at all. And it was a long sentence too!

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#89

Post by throwawayjava »

daxorid wrote: post #54
pc86 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> prisons should be to rehabilitate A lot of people, regardless of political persuasion, believe that the purpose of prisons is to punish those inside. No more, no less, and any "rehabilitation" is just something that happens alongside (and often in spite of) the real purpose.

Even if the purpose was punishment, I wonder why we harbor such a deep aversion to corporal punishment. The (US) Constitution prohibits "cruel and unusual" punishments in sentencing, but in my mind, losing years of one's life, which one will never get back, is significantly more cruel than, say, fifty lashes.

There's a book on (roughly) this question:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline_and_Punish#Summary

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#90

Post by Domenic_S »

hnaccy wrote: post #44
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found a source for inmate stats: https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offen... It's hard to precisely quantify the violent versus non-violent crimes, so I'll be making some assumptions in my summary based on some educated guesses about the kinds of crimes that land you in each category: Non-violent: 70% Violent: 30%

That's only counting federal prisoners. When you include state prisoners you get Violent: 47% Property: 17% Weapons: 5% It's not obvious to me that the "vast majority" of prisoners are not dangerous.

"violent" is not the total subset of "dangerous".
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