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HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

prisonism.co.uk

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Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#61

Post by RobertoG »

pc86 wrote: post #19
gcb0 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how to solve prisons in America: go full Liberal. states want private prisons. prisons should be to rehabilitate. so pay the prison business only if it delivers. i.e. pay private prisons on a rehabilitation rate instead of simply the number of inmates. it's not like you're expected to pay for damaged goods in a regular business transaction, so simply stop doing so with private prisons.

> prisons should be to rehabilitate A lot of people, regardless of political persuasion, believe that the purpose of prisons is to punish those inside. No more, no less, and any "rehabilitation" is just something that happens alongside (and often in spite of) the real purpose.

Luckily we have a lot of data.

If punishment is rehabilitating, in average, the harder the prisons the nicer the people that come from them. We could check for instance, I don't know, Russia vs. Sweden or something like that.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#62

Post by kelnos »

geofft wrote: post #49
cm2187 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it probably prevented hundred of Madoff wannabes...

"Probably"? If we're going to deny people the most fundamental human rights, we need a bit more rational reasoning than "probably".

If prison sentences are merely a deterrent to other criminals, then sure, we need some evidence to back up the idea that deterrence works. (I would think it's pretty self-evident that there are a ton of minor/medium crimes that would increase in prevalence if there were no consequences, though.)

But it's not. Prison is also a punishment for the person who committed the crime, and, if our prison system wasn't so messed up, could be a place for reform.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#63

Post by alsetmusic »

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #48
throwawayxbe8 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about one that accommodates people who possess marijuana? What about a society that accommodates people who have opioid addictions and need medical help? I think you have a rather skewed idea of the majority of our prison population. I'll give you a hint, though: most of them aren't rapists, murderers, and child molesters.

> I'll give you a hint, though: most of them aren't rapists, murderers, and child molesters. HINT = 15% of the prison population in California are sex offenders.

>> I'll give you a hint, though: most of them aren't rapists, murderers, and child molesters.

> HINT = 15% of the prison population in California are sex offenders.

Rapists and child molesters would both fall under the sex offender category, meaning 85% of prisoners are not convicted of those crimes (according to your post, which lacks citation).

Are you indicating that more than one in three California prisoners are convicted of murder? It sounds like you’re making a case for more than 35% of prisoners as murderes (15 + 35 = 50%). I’m not comfortable with that assumption without links to data.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#64

Post by fisherjeff »

alsetmusic wrote: post #63
ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll give you a hint, though: most of them aren't rapists, murderers, and child molesters. HINT = 15% of the prison population in California are sex offenders.

>> I'll give you a hint, though: most of them aren't rapists, murderers, and child molesters. > HINT = 15% of the prison population in California are sex offenders. Rapists and child molesters would both fall under the sex offender category, meaning 85% of prisoners are not convicted of those crimes (according to your post, which lacks citation). Are you indicating that more than one in three California prisoners are…

This definitely doesn't support their point, but the State of California's report[0] turns out to be generally fascinating. More to the point of this thread, sex offenders and murderers make up ~26% of their prison population.

[0] http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Reports_Research/Offender_Information...

EDIT: homicide != murder

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#65

Post by creviere »

whathaschanged wrote: post #50
throwawayxbe8 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about one that accommodates people who possess marijuana? What about a society that accommodates people who have opioid addictions and need medical help? I think you have a rather skewed idea of the majority of our prison population. I'll give you a hint, though: most of them aren't rapists, murderers, and child molesters.

We got Al Capone for tax evasion. Sometimes the laws you see as unjust are there for a reason. In California, for instance, a DUI has a part A and B so if they drop one part you always get convicted of the other.

Are you suggesting that most offenders of what are typically seen as 'minor' or 'victimless' crimes are actually guilty of more serious crimes, but for whatever reason cannot be caught or prosecuted?

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#66

Post by cryptica »

keiferski wrote: post #9
panic wrote: post #7

For more cheery prison reading, here's an article from a reporter who worked undercover as a guard at a private US prison: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-pris... . IMO, the whole idea of prisons is inherently inhumane. We've really got to do better.

I've always held to the "Sin City"[1] philosophy: society's needs change over time, while people fundamentally don't. The existence of prison is just a failure of society to accommodate the wide variety of human natures. Obviously this brings up questions of the "dangerous to society" variety, but a minuscule percentage of prisoners are dangerous psycho killers. [1] Most people think Marv is crazy, but I don't believ…

I disagree. If society always let people get away with their crimes, criminals would gain an evolutionary upper hand and soon crime and distrust would become the norm. Criminals would be popping out children and altruistic people would be picking up the bill.

Also I think that our current system lets white collar criminals off too easily; they should be punished more severely.

This type of evolution is especially dangerous in a modern context because technology and globalization have taken the humanity out of our daily interactions and have therefore reduced the importance of altruism.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#67

Post by cjrp »

alex_hitchins wrote: post #15
hackermailman wrote: post #8

Interesting system where you can bring your own things to prison instead of being forced to buy 300% price increased items from the prison commissary in N. America like clothing, fans, radios. System here is very different in other ways such as being in a 200+ inmate dorm is the standard instead of cells, and there's dozens of rules set by inmates none of which were in this guide. You also get a 'prison consultant' i…

You can bring some items, but you couldn't bring a telly etc. There was talk a while back about banning books being sent to prisioners, not sure what logic was used for that one. I haven't been to prison in the UK or the US however what I've seen of both, the US system seems straight up about making money over anything else. I'd hope the UK system isn't this way although I fear it likely is going that way.

> I'd hope the UK system isn't this way although I fear it likely is going that way

I fear the same, for example:

"On 16 December 2016, some 600 prisoners took part in a riot at HM Prison Birmingham, a prison in Birmingham, England, operated by G4S.[71] The disturbance was described as the worst in Britain since the 1990 Strangeways riot." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G4S#Activities

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#68

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

7952 wrote: post #26
pc86 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> prisons should be to rehabilitate A lot of people, regardless of political persuasion, believe that the purpose of prisons is to punish those inside. No more, no less, and any "rehabilitation" is just something that happens alongside (and often in spite of) the real purpose.

The trouble is that punishment and rehabilitation are seen as mutually exclusive. That a "soft" prison is less punishing. But really the removal of freedom in itself is a vast punishment. Going further than that is just unceccessary and counterproductive.

The problem is rehabilitation only works on some people, and punishment works on virtually no one.

Prisons are a dumping ground for people with personality disorders. You can't fix a personality disorder with rehabilitation, or with punishment. (Arguably you can't fix a personality disorder at all.)

Some people are relatively rational. They commit crimes for a variety of reasons, a good proportion of which are a direct outcome of poverty and/or economic abuse and/or racism.

The best way to rehabilitate them is to rehabilitate society so it doesn't push them into a corner, or create subcultures where crime is a reasonable survival option.

The people with psychological issues are much harder to deal with. Keeping them locked and away and occupied is more humane than trying to "punish" them, because the punishment is pointless and will have exactly zero effect.

Running prisons as a for-profit industry instead of a social service is barbarism, and ultimately just puts more criminals on the streets.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#69

Post by influx »

jackhack wrote: post #28
njs12345 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you enjoyed this you might enjoy Jeffrey Archer's prison diaries - he was a British politician jailed for perjury in the 2000s who wrote up his time inside: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Prison-Diary-1-Hell/dp/0330418599

I would heartily recommend "Life at the Bottom: The Worldview That Makes the Underclass" by Dr. Theodore Dalrymple. It gives keen insight into the cultural mindset of victimization that produces the persistent underclass. From the overview: "Theodore Dalrymple, a British psychiatrist who treats the poor in a slum hospital and a prison in England, has seemingly seen it all. Yet in listening to and observing his patien…

Isn't this self contradictory? Instead of taking personal responsibility for a failed set of values, instead the author blames an "elite culture searching for victims".

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#70

Post by everdev »

cryptica wrote: post #66
keiferski wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always held to the "Sin City"[1] philosophy: society's needs change over time, while people fundamentally don't. The existence of prison is just a failure of society to accommodate the wide variety of human natures. Obviously this brings up questions of the "dangerous to society" variety, but a minuscule percentage of prisoners are dangerous psycho killers. [1] Most people think Marv is crazy, but I don't believ…

I disagree. If society always let people get away with their crimes, criminals would gain an evolutionary upper hand and soon crime and distrust would become the norm. Criminals would be popping out children and altruistic people would be picking up the bill. Also I think that our current system lets white collar criminals off too easily; they should be punished more severely. This type of evolution is especially dan…

Agreed. For many, morality is relative, especially in a competitive/capitalist society.
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