Switching to e-cigarettes could save 6.6M American smokers • Hacker News Board

Re: Switching to e-cigarettes could save 6.6M American smokers

#91

Post by j0rd » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 5:52 PM UTC

craftyguy wrote: post #87

j0rd wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think ecigs are an interesting experiment in free markets. A bunch of like minded people who had a habbit which was the leading cause of preventable death coming together to figure out a way to kill themselves less. Have there been things in the industry which were poisonous and could kill you over the course of it's history. Yes. Lots. Have those been slowly fased out as concerned consumers voice opinio…

So your argument is that because e-cig users are coming from one harmful product, that we should do nothing to prevent the new product from causing undue harm, and that eventually (decades?) e-cigs will become safer because someone (who?) will eventually phase out the harmful ones? Why not stop wasting time and lives, and prevent the harmful ones from being produced/released?

Because it stops innovation.

Ni200 which is a pure nickel wire was invented for temperature control. Required a specific device and chip to use as it has almost 0 resistance. Some stupid uneducated people or vendors sold it and and used it in non temperature controlled devices and poisoined themselves (not fatally), or blew up their batteries on non-regulated devices.

I just started vaping last month, and while I bought some kanthal wire, I also bought some ni200 and Titanium wire, which is dangerous if not used correctly. I personally didn't know, but also didn't use it until I looked it up.

With that said, ni200 wire did invent temperature control, which is a method of vaping these days.

Re: Switching to e-cigarettes could save 6.6M American smokers

#92

Post by JamesBarney » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 5:53 PM UTC

craftyguy wrote: post #87

j0rd wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think ecigs are an interesting experiment in free markets. A bunch of like minded people who had a habbit which was the leading cause of preventable death coming together to figure out a way to kill themselves less. Have there been things in the industry which were poisonous and could kill you over the course of it's history. Yes. Lots. Have those been slowly fased out as concerned consumers voice opinio…

So your argument is that because e-cig users are coming from one harmful product, that we should do nothing to prevent the new product from causing undue harm, and that eventually (decades?) e-cigs will become safer because someone (who?) will eventually phase out the harmful ones? Why not stop wasting time and lives, and prevent the harmful ones from being produced/released?

I don't think he's making the argument that on principle there should never be any e-cigs regulations because cigarettes are harmful.

The algebra for e-cig regulation is # of people saved by regulation - # of people killed by regulation(people who smoke more cigarettes because of the increased cost, and decreased variety of e-cigs)

And because cigarettes are sooooo dangerous even a small increase in smoking can causes the second term to overwhelm the first.

Re: Switching to e-cigarettes could save 6.6M American smokers

#93

Post by Aloha » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 6:03 PM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #66

aphextron wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/6/9/e006579 "Acute exposure to electronic cigarettes with nicotine increases cardiac sympathetic nerve activity in a pattern of heart rate variability that recapitulates the same heart rate variability pattern associated with increased cardiac risk in multiple populations with and without known cardiac disease." I'm not arguing that e-cigs may not be healthier than smoking tobacco…

Your claim above is much stronger than what the study suggests (though it does at least point in the same direction). > Most people don't realize that it's not really the smoke and lung cancer that leads to a majority of smoking deaths. It's the cardiovascular effects of nicotine leading to heart disease. As described downthread, they keep finding associations that indicate that nicotine/heart disease associations ma…

Agreed - most people attribute the effects of smoking to nicotine, when it should be attributed to inhaling the products of combustion.

Re: Switching to e-cigarettes could save 6.6M American smokers

#94

Post by snuxoll » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 6:06 PM UTC

j0rd wrote: post #91

craftyguy wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument is that because e-cig users are coming from one harmful product, that we should do nothing to prevent the new product from causing undue harm, and that eventually (decades?) e-cigs will become safer because someone (who?) will eventually phase out the harmful ones? Why not stop wasting time and lives, and prevent the harmful ones from being produced/released?

Because it stops innovation. Ni200 which is a pure nickel wire was invented for temperature control. Required a specific device and chip to use as it has almost 0 resistance. Some stupid uneducated people or vendors sold it and and used it in non temperature controlled devices and poisoined themselves (not fatally), or blew up their batteries on non-regulated devices. I just started vaping last month, and while I bou…

316L stainless steel is a much safer option than Ni200 or titanium wire, shame it's not more commonly used (Kangertech sells 316L coils, but they're awfully hard to find compared to the Ni200 ones).

Re: Switching to e-cigarettes could save 6.6M American smokers

#95

Post by hwillis » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

alexanderstears wrote: post #36

Our society's tendency to moralize or rationalize issues has made it tough to talk about harm reduction. Moralizers focus on the corrosive elements of addiction and rationalizers say that e-cigs are still harmful but they miss the point that many people who smoke e-cigs are better off than they would be if they used cigs to get their nicotine. E-cigs offer a better path to cessation through better control of the nico…

Counterargument: I have seen vaping be MUCH more popular among people who would not otherwise smoke, and relatively little impact among people who do smoke. That's anecdotal obviously, but I think its pretty clear that the less noxious and more convenient nature makes vaping way more popular among younger people, potentially starting lifelong addictions.

There isn't a whole lot of reason to believe these products are particularly safer, either. The heating coils are in direct contact with the fluid and get easily hot enough to decompose it. Glycerine is food-safe and very probably alright to inhale- the other products used in vape fluid and the unwanted side-products from overheating them are reactive unknowns.

E-cigs and vaporizers are/have the potential to be way more popular among people who wouldn't otherwise use them and they are not as simple or safe as just nicotine (which itself isn't as simple or safe as just being a stimulant). Because of those two factors and the current and past massive negative effects of smoking, it's an extremely good idea to regulate them carefully or even heavily. We already know how hard it is to get the genie back into the bottle from cigarettes.

Re: Switching to e-cigarettes could save 6.6M American smokers

#96

Post by gertef » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 6:10 PM UTC

j0rd wrote: post #60

I quit smoking a while ago for 4 months using a vape, then Thailand's military junta banned them and most shops closed. It's been a couple years now and tonnes of online shops started to sell and I'd see lots of local vapers while having coffee, so decided to give that a go. It's been a month since I've had a cigarette now since I've started vaping. Energy is up and sense of smell is coming back. Used to smoke a pack…

Vaping is illegal, but cigarettes are legal? Vaping is illegal, but also taxed?

Re: Switching to e-cigarettes could save 6.6M American smokers

#97

Post by gertef » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 6:13 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #79

bb88 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With cigarettes, it's the burning that creates the issue, as the excessive amounts of heat create the carcinogens and the smoke.

Chewing tobacco is still carcinogenic.

What in tobacco makes tobacco so bad, compared to all the other plants and animals people chew on?

Re: Switching to e-cigarettes could save 6.6M American smokers

#98

Post by mistercow » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 6:14 PM UTC

wolfgang42 wrote: post #62

excalibur wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both. Even vaping 0mg nicotine is bad for you, but not nearly as bad as smoking.

What are the health risks of vaping with non-nicotine-containing fluid? I thought that it was just atomized vegetable glycerin with a bit of flavoring, but I've not done much research into the matter.

Heating glycerin can produce acrolein and formaldehyde, and this has been reported in ecigs in several studies. The amounts are minuscule compared to cigarettes and don't seem to show up in second-hand vapor, but it's plausible that this could cause some long term harm.

This is why I really wish someone would sell an ultrasonic vape, which the original patent included. That should be far safer, but so far, nobody seems to be making them.

Re: Switching to e-cigarettes could save 6.6M American smokers

#99

Post by EpicEng » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 6:17 PM UTC

KekDemaga wrote: post #65

EpicEng wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I did it, it should work for everyone!" We have decades of data showing that isn't the case.

"Some people make an attempt and fail, thus it must be impossible."

That doesn't follow. We know for an absolute fact that cold turkey doesn't work for most people. We also know that many people want to smoke even when knowing the dangers. A safer alternative is working better than anything before it ever has.

Re: Switching to e-cigarettes could save 6.6M American smokers

#100

Post by excalibur » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 6:20 PM UTC

gertef wrote: post #96

j0rd wrote: post #60

I quit smoking a while ago for 4 months using a vape, then Thailand's military junta banned them and most shops closed. It's been a couple years now and tonnes of online shops started to sell and I'd see lots of local vapers while having coffee, so decided to give that a go. It's been a month since I've had a cigarette now since I've started vaping. Energy is up and sense of smell is coming back. Used to smoke a pack…

Vaping is illegal, but cigarettes are legal? Vaping is illegal, but also taxed?

Surely the taxes refer to cigarettes. Vaping equipment is sold in a variety of ways, but none of them are by the "pack".