The fact that many politicians still don't know about the Streisand effect never ceases to amaze me. They should have let this slide and no one would have cared, heck most people can't spot Catalunya on a map and now it's all over international news with voters in blood including women and elderly people.
Yep, today a lot of people that were against THIS referendum and wouldn't have vote have gone to vote even to vote no.
It has been converted from an independence referendum to a protest.
And we must remember that last polls in Catalonia from Madrid newspapers like El Pais (against secession) say that 82% of catalans want a legal referendum, even the voters of PP and C's, the most vocals against secession
I'm not disagreeing, but just a semantic argument here. The referendum is absolutely democratic. But it is also illegal under the Spanish constitution. The problem is that the Spanish constitution and the judge's interpretation (which is straightforward but unfortunate) patently would disallow self determination through a referendum, which to me is democracy in its purest form. The only reason it's illegal is because…
Why is the referendum democratic? is it your opinion that unilateral secession of any region, under any circumstances is democratic by definition? I find that very strange. I don't agree.
You seem to conflate 'democratic', 'legal' and 'desired'.
Something can be democratic and illegal - when laws are enacted to prevent certain applications of democracy, as it appears to be the case here. Something can also be democratic and undesired - many on here that Brexit is an example of that.
But words have meanings. A referendum if held under basic voting and independence rules is by definition democratic. Even if it concerns unilateral secession.
The Spanish government did have a choice and this particular decision will likely lead to a shooting war.
No it won't, Catalonia doesn't have an army. It could lead to the creation of terrorist cells I guess, I hope things don't get that far.
We used to have that. It took years of negotiation to dismantle that. I don't think we'll fall down that path again. Not our generation, at least. Can't speak for the next ones.
From the shitshow Spain put out on the BBC in their interview the other day this outcome seemed inevitable. The guy basically said "they shouldn't have an election because they'll lose and that's why they shouldn't even bother having this illegal vote at all". People need to remember how shitty Spain's economy is/was after the 2008 collapse. People talked about them in the same breath as Greece, Italy, and Ireland.
People ought to know we're still deep under the rubble of the collapse, and most of us need two, even three jobs, to earn just enough to live by.
They ought to know that Spain government has been siphoning funds out from the pension funds, and under the pretense of solidarity between communities are making the richer autonomies pay for everything that should be paid with the money they're using to further their own agendas, pay lobbies for a position after they retire, and putting people of their families as assistant in a way that reeks of nepotism, just to enrich themselves.
People should know the Government of Spain has declared the millions funneled to rescue the banks as lost without hope of ever getting anything back, all the while kicking people out of their mortgaged houses which they can't pay for thanks to the late laws on working rights passed with absolute majority by this same government without ever consulting the citizens.
They should know, but very few headlines ever talk about that, because the local media is in debt to the banks who profit from dealing with the government in this fantastic, incorruptible country.
Brexit was a democratic decision. People may hate the results and call it bullshit, say the vote shouldn't matter, etc. But it's still democratic. A non-democratic option would be the government breaking off without consulting the residents. Or a government saying people who live in a region aren't allowed to have a vote to decide their fate because politicians from other regions forbid it.
Yes, it was agreed and allowed under local law. Catalonian's referendum was not. It's not legal. Needs to be agreed upon. Additionally, to see why a group of people wanting to secede might also be unethical, think about this case. A country finds unobtanium in its land. Decides to build an unobtanium factory there, which costs 20% of GDP but it pays off with awesome employment growth and tax revenue. Now the inhabita…
> Yes, it was agreed and allowed under local law. Catalonian's referendum was not. It's not legal. Needs to be agreed upon.
There is no way Catalans could organize a legal referendum. That's something which is not going to change in the foreseeable future, specially having seen how the Spanish government has been behaving the last 15 years.
Whenever you say to Catalans: this is not a legal referendum, you loose all legitimacy if you do not suggest how this can be made legal. And by that I mean a serious, well intentioned proposal, not simply a way of kicking the problem down the road, as the often repeated "let's change the constitution to allow for a referendum". This is positively never, ever going to happen, so it can be considered a joke.
I'm not disagreeing, but just a semantic argument here. The referendum is absolutely democratic. But it is also illegal under the Spanish constitution. The problem is that the Spanish constitution and the judge's interpretation (which is straightforward but unfortunate) patently would disallow self determination through a referendum, which to me is democracy in its purest form. The only reason it's illegal is because…
Why is the referendum democratic? is it your opinion that unilateral secession of any region, under any circumstances is democratic by definition? I find that very strange. I don't agree.
> is it your opinion that unilateral secession of any region, under any circumstances is democratic by definition? I find that very strange. I don't agree.
Definitely not, not under any circumstance. But if backed by a big (60%?) part of the population, then yes. Referendum are dangerous beasts, but not allowing popular opinion to be heard once in a while is even worse.
So, as happens with democracy, which is "the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time", a referendum is the worst option, except for all the rest.