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Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown

#41

Post by nsnick »

lz400 wrote: post #24
bitL wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women's suffrage used to be illegal. Black movements in the US used to be illegal. Fight against apartheid used to be illegal. Now we have Spanish police beating ordinary people in the age of Internet. This is beyond Streisand-effect stupid. They should have done British style referendum, almost surely "Independencia" would have lost, and then could stick the result to the faces of local population for the next two d…

That's a very obvious fallacy. Women's suffrage used to be legal, therefore all laws are wrong? or, the law I don't like is wrong?

Legal does not imply moral. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it is immoral.

Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown

#42

Post by nsnick »

DCKing wrote: post #6
lz400 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not democratic, it's illegal and the justice system has ordered its dismantling. Think what you will, disagree with the law if you want but at this point the government is forced to apply the law. They don't have a choice.

I'm not disagreeing, but just a semantic argument here. The referendum is absolutely democratic. But it is also illegal under the Spanish constitution. The problem is that the Spanish constitution and the judge's interpretation (which is straightforward but unfortunate) patently would disallow self determination through a referendum, which to me is democracy in its purest form. The only reason it's illegal is because…

The Spanish government did have a choice and this particular decision will likely lead to a shooting war.

Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown

#43

Post by wilun »

lz400 wrote: post #3
s_kilk wrote: post #2

It's frankly disgraceful that the Spanish state has turned to violence to suppress the democratic process.

It's not democratic, it's illegal and the justice system has ordered its dismantling. Think what you will, disagree with the law if you want but at this point the government is forced to apply the law. They don't have a choice.

You are just requiring democratic as implying not-illegal for some arbitrary laws.

We already had tons of examples for why this is a very poor criteria. IMO, this vote is just one more example.

Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown

#45

Post by ryanlol »

chki wrote: post #36
patrickaljord wrote: post #20

The fact that many politicians still don't know about the Streisand effect never ceases to amaze me. They should have let this slide and no one would have cared, heck most people can't spot Catalunya on a map and now it's all over international news with voters in blood including women and elderly people.

I'm not sure wether that would have actually been a possibility. The referendum ist illegal according to the ruling of the highest constitutional court. The absolute minimum of what a functioning state needs to do is pushing back on all illegal activities. By not doing anything against an illegal referendum the Spanish state would have made the first step towards accepting that it does no longer have full control ove…

>I'm not sure wether that would have actually been a possibility. The referendum ist illegal according to the ruling of the highest constitutional court. The absolute minimum of what a functioning state needs to do is pushing back on all illegal activities.

Utter nonsense. According to the courts referendum is invalid, organizing it in on the ground isn't criminal. Using public funds for it may be.

Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown

#46

Post by adnam »

patrickaljord wrote: post #20

The fact that many politicians still don't know about the Streisand effect never ceases to amaze me. They should have let this slide and no one would have cared, heck most people can't spot Catalunya on a map and now it's all over international news with voters in blood including women and elderly people.

You assume Rajoy doesn't want people to see this violent crackdown. But I think he does.

Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown

#47

Post by _hgt1 »

Findeton wrote: post #31

I'm from Spain (Madrid) and I support the referendum, because I'm an economic libertarian and I support the freedom of association and smaller States. BTW, this is not a real referendum, as there are no guarantees. Of course, the reason why there are no democratic guarantees is because of the actions of the Spanish government. But you can see the "high degree" census control here in this video: https://elpais.com/Com…

The Catalan police is here too, and they're not cracking skulls.

Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown

#48

Post by ryanlol »

Findeton wrote: post #31

I'm from Spain (Madrid) and I support the referendum, because I'm an economic libertarian and I support the freedom of association and smaller States. BTW, this is not a real referendum, as there are no guarantees. Of course, the reason why there are no democratic guarantees is because of the actions of the Spanish government. But you can see the "high degree" census control here in this video: https://elpais.com/Com…

>But you can see the "high degree" census control here in this video: https://elpais.com/Comentario/1506857481-5be7eb5d11476b5cac1....

This video tells you nothing, those ballot boxes don't seem to be in a polling station. Why assume they'll ever be counted?

Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown

#49

Post by m_nidis »

I find amusing most of The comments about allowing the vote. Voting is only a very small part of a democracy. The strongest pillar in any democratic state is the rule of law and separation of powers. I would like to ask the Catalan parents that have put their kids in front of charging police if they feel proud. Me personally what I feel is shame and sadnes. Manipulating chilhood in the name of freedom, In a very represeed European region. Well done!

Re: Catalan referendum: Voting begins amid police crackdown

#50

Post by adnam »

lz400 wrote: post #3
s_kilk wrote: post #2

It's frankly disgraceful that the Spanish state has turned to violence to suppress the democratic process.

It's not democratic, it's illegal and the justice system has ordered its dismantling. Think what you will, disagree with the law if you want but at this point the government is forced to apply the law. They don't have a choice.

You can't solve political problems with judges and riot police.
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