Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#231

Post by johnchristopher » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 7:29 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #10

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

Yeah well. Constitution aren't that sacred https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Belgium?wpro...

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#232

Post by dogma1138 » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 7:40 PM UTC

notspanishflu wrote: post #135

breischl wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not clearer, at least to me. >All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards. This seems self-contradictory. Mis-typed? Or perhaps you mean it's up to all Spaniards, not just some Spaniards?

All Spaniards have the right, not only a part of Spaniards (like those living in Catalonia).

It's like saying that the Welsh should have a right to vote on the independence of Scotland.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#233

Post by Oletros » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 7:51 PM UTC

pipio21 wrote: post #106

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

Very simple. The idea was making the last normal elections an independence referendum, had independentist won. They lost. So they decided they would fly forward. Most of them, like Mas and Puigdemont were friends or partners of Puyol, who actually manage to steal hundreds of millions of euros, probably thousands, they are going to jail anyway. They have nothing to lose and lots to win. Puyol stole for 40 years withou…

> Puyol stole for 40 years without nobody in central Government doing anything, you could not do business there without paying to his family. He actually hired people from the Spanish secret services and got a lot of information back so central Government was scared of doing anything against him.

Poor central government, at least they are lucky that NOBODY in that party has been stealing and being corrupt, isn't?

And yes, PuJol (Puyol is the football player) is a thief and one of the most corrupts politicians in Spain, buy he is not very different from a lot of others politicians of PP and PSOE

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#234

Post by dgut » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 8:11 PM UTC

johnchristopher wrote: post #230

dgut wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if that were true - and I don't see any evidence from you. History is not your strong side then, I guess. > Because I know what rubber bullets are, and what they can do. Whereas you appear to have no idea. Rubber bullets are nonlethal and not meant to cause serious injuries or death unless of course misused at very close range. Participating in an illegal uprising isn't going to be consequence-free.

Illegal uprising ? Come on, it's not like it's about half a dozen colonels ordering troops to seize the parliament. It's ten of thousands civilians putting papers in ballots.

With very likely negative consequences. The vote is unconstitutional and intended to disturb the Spanish state. Puigdemonte is a populist playing with the people of Catalonia, as he is well-aware of the impossibility of this project, but hey it put him in charge. Remember also he is leading a minority government.

I think a lot of people here ignore the seriousness of the matter and have very naive views on separatists.

That said, the unemployed youth of Catalonia (37%) probably find the whole thing very attractive.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#235

Post by turbinerneiter » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 8:14 PM UTC

throwaway76543 wrote: post #207

turbinerneiter wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no flaw. If a group of people doesn't want to be governed by a certain body they should have the right to secede. A government derives it's right to rule by the people accepting this rule. Obviously this is a really hard problem and it opens up the door for all kind of abuses, but ultimately democracy demands that. Democracy first needs a demos. A group of people who feel connected by whatever reason they li…

You declare "there is no flaw" and then you proceed to describe it in detail. Surely you can see the flaw in this new line of reasoning as well?

Sorry, but "Surely you can see the flaw" is not meaningful contribution to the discussion. It's just a passive aggressive way of saying "you are wrong so please think until you realize the superiority of my opinion".

There is two simple truths. 1. If a group decides that it doesn't want to be ruled by a certain body, it's hard to legitimize the continuation of that rule. 2. If any group, especially very small ones can refuse the ruling body, all big groups will ultimately split down to individuals with no rules at all.

Democracy only works when balancing these truths. Trough opposition in parliament, minority rights, local and regional governments, regional independence and so on.

I.e. the whole situation in Catalan is blowing up because the reginal independence wasn't granted (or not enough in the opinion of the Catalans). Look at South-Tyrol in Italy for an example where things are working better. Even the American states are a good example - liberal, rich California wouldn't accept Republican rule without the independence the states have.

Surely you can see the point I'm trying to make?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#236

Post by Grue3 » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 8:37 PM UTC

Joeri wrote: post #5

If this were happening in russia, the EU leaders would have loudly condemned the human rights violations. The silence from them now is shameful.

Russia does murder separatists in Chechnya and Dagestan literally every day. Clearly you aren't aware of that because nobody loudly condemns it.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#237

Post by dgut » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 8:44 PM UTC

mo_po wrote: post #227

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is how you determine the entity that should have a right to such a vote. There are many wealthy regions in many countries that may want to keep all their money for themselves in spite of the fact that their wealth is based on its historical role within the country as a whole. For instance, London has a lot of reasons to declare itself independent from the UK. But it would seem rather odd if all it took to…

As a catalan, I have to say that I don't care if we pay more taxes. What I find annoying is that PP, party that uses hate against catalans to win votes and has corruption rooted and proved since it's foundation, keeps raising election after election. The economical matter by itself is just a selfish argument that I don't share. I care for fighting corruption and for not being treated as a second class citizen because…

Catalonia has no better corruption track record than the rest of Spain. Basically what you are saying is that you don't like the majority party, and therefore want to form your own nation. That's not how democracy works. Catalonia already enjoys a strong autonomy status, stronger than any other region of Spain and arguably stronger than any other region of Europe.

I agree PP isn't optimal, but I fail to see any real alternative coming from Catalonia or the entire region that is Spain.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#238

Post by fauigerzigerk » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 8:49 PM UTC

mo_po wrote: post #227

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is how you determine the entity that should have a right to such a vote. There are many wealthy regions in many countries that may want to keep all their money for themselves in spite of the fact that their wealth is based on its historical role within the country as a whole. For instance, London has a lot of reasons to declare itself independent from the UK. But it would seem rather odd if all it took to…

As a catalan, I have to say that I don't care if we pay more taxes. What I find annoying is that PP, party that uses hate against catalans to win votes and has corruption rooted and proved since it's foundation, keeps raising election after election. The economical matter by itself is just a selfish argument that I don't share. I care for fighting corruption and for not being treated as a second class citizen because…

I believe you when you say it's not about money for you. That doesn't mean it's not for many others. However, my concern is more about the principle of the right to secede.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#239

Post by csdreamer7 » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:06 PM UTC

kgwgk wrote: post #228

csdreamer7 wrote: post #192

The pro-Spain arguments here in this post are really poor. The only two good arguments that on their face are worth looking at are: Catalan's pop is evenly split on the issue and local officials are pushing it to gain power. Spain was baited-they took it, and now Catalan's secession movement has international sympathy. For abit of context of how something this is handled here in America. In 2015 the US Supreme Court…

A more similar situation would have been the Hawaiian government organising a binding vote to secede from the US in 48 hours (while maintaining the US citizenship!). I guess the SCOTUS involvement would have been more intense in that case.

Technically the state was involved. They were sued along with the non-profit in violation of the US Constitution and the Voting Rights Act. You can see this info with the SCOTUS brief I linked.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#240

Post by kgwgk » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:29 PM UTC

csdreamer7 wrote: post #239

kgwgk wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more similar situation would have been the Hawaiian government organising a binding vote to secede from the US in 48 hours (while maintaining the US citizenship!). I guess the SCOTUS involvement would have been more intense in that case.

Technically the state was involved. They were sued along with the non-profit in violation of the US Constitution and the Voting Rights Act. You can see this info with the SCOTUS brief I linked.

It was involved in a tangential way, doesn't seem comparable.