HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#151

Post by lgierth » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #107

mikekchar wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, let me say that I think that IPFS is a good idea and that it has applications that are useful now. However, if I interpret the parent's "thoughtless hype" as "hopelessly naive", I'm pretty much in agreement. Checkout Freenet[0]. And while trying to maintain anonymity makes the problem even more difficult, there are fundamental problems in Freenet that make it basically unusable (mostly around cache coherency a…

First, it was not IPFS people who said HTTP was obsolete. If you check out the original post, it's from Neocities blog. Second, people tried "sharing economy" startups back in the web1.0 era when everything went down crashing. But in 2017 we have Uber. The freenet project doesn't change my argument at all because like I said, I'm not saying IPFS will succeed. I'm saying there's always a chance because the world is co…

One very important vector for adoption that often gets overlooked is interoperability. The cost of adoption can be significantly reduced by making sure the new thing nicely interoperates with the existing deployments. We're attempting to do this well with IPFS and libp2p.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#152

Post by teddyh » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:03 PM UTC

Indeed it has been said that decentralization is the worst form of networking except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

(With apologies to Winston Churchill.)

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#153

Post by Spivak » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:10 PM UTC

throw036281 wrote: post #128

How would you deal with child pornography hosted on IPFS? What about IP infringement?

The same way you deal with them now. You go after the content discovery platform for which there is usually a small number of authoritative sources.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#154

Post by stri8ed » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:13 PM UTC

quintushoratius wrote: post #139

throw036281 wrote: post #128

How would you deal with child pornography hosted on IPFS? What about IP infringement?

More importantly, how do you deal with a seeder that is (unwittingly) seeding such items?

Opt-in community based blacklist.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#155

Post by Spivak » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:13 PM UTC

CJefferson wrote: post #130

alwillis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because IPFS uses a distributed hash table like Bittorent, you don't have to know where stuff is--that's the problem with the HTTP, which is location addressed. IPFS is content addressed—the hash is the location. You never host anything unless you want to; you don't host random stuff. It's 2017, if you're using Google Docs or an instant messenger program and lose access to the backbone, you can't communicate with som…

Except for bittorrent, in my experience unless someone dedicates themselves to full time "hosting" of some torrent, it will be seedless within a month or so, after the initial wave of popularity.

Right, if you're running a site you'll still need to have your own infrastructure to host the authoritative source. IPFS is supposed to reduce the need for CDNs.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#156

Post by mseebach » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

hobofan wrote: post #64

chii wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

true for revolutionary new technology. Not true for incremental technology that aims to replace an existing similar technology. Especially if the incremental tech is something that most "normal" people don't really care about (such as hosting content on the internet).

A distributed web (including proper mesh networks) has the potential of changing the status quo from constantly worrying about data limits and "I don't have any wifi" to "normal" people having constant "internet" access everywhere they go. I think they don't care much about the underlying technology, but they will notice when some apps work faster and without a mobile data connection when others don't.

> changing the status quo from constantly worrying about data limits and "I don't have any wifi" to "normal" people having constant "internet" access everywhere they go.

So will rapidly increasing data allowances and cellular coverage. Plenty of European countries have effectively unlimited data packages and effectively complete network coverage.

Crucially, whatever gaps there are in this are very likely to get filled through already underway progress much faster than a distributed web on mesh networks will get to a usable stage.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#157

Post by ctdonath » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:32 PM UTC

geezerjay wrote: post #110

blurbleblurble wrote: post #74

I need to comment because people are missing the point... there's nothing in this text that says the web won't need servers. Imagine that you and some friends want to launch a small local business and need to host a website. Instead of paying to host it "up in the cloud", why not plug a few raspberry pi's into the walls at each of your houses? Between that and also seeding it from your laptops, the site should have d…

You're not describing a problem that users need fixing. You're describing how nice it would be for corporations to unload their own infrastructure requirements onto unsuspecting users to try to piggyback on their hardware. That's not a solution to any problem. That's in fact a problem being created for users. Consumers purchase hardware to fill their needs, and there's nothing to be gained for wasting their resources…

It is a problem for sites facing censorship (gov't or corporate or social).

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#158

Post by shade23 » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:32 PM UTC

How does ipfs deal with dynamic content? And how would you make sure that everyone uses an updated version of the website.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#159

Post by blurbleblurble » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

Semiapies wrote: post #133

blurbleblurble wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is saying we can't or shouldn't have servers. "But who's going to pay for servers to retain random peoples' and companies' web detritus?" The same people who do this now. Because nothing in this scheme says you can't have servers just like you do now. The difference is that you don't need a server to get started collaborating. If you want to host something to have it available offline, that's a built in featur…

"Because nothing in this scheme says you can't have servers just like you do now." Pretty much all the defenders of IPFS here give me the impression they haven't bothered to read the article hyping IPFS that's linked at the top of this page.

I read the article.

What are you finding to be inconsistent?

I'm thinking of a "server" as a dedicated computer connected to the network. With IPFS, if you want to ensure your data is available, seed it with one or more dedicated computers, like you would now. Seed it on digital ocean or amazon even, if you want. Nothing prevents you from doing this.

In the future, there will be new ways of incentivizing groups of people to seed data that isn't naturally viral. But nothing is stopping people from using the time tested, old fashioned ways in the meantime.

I don't buy the idea that IPFS stuff is inherently permanent, but I don't care. Even the way that IPFS handles broken links is way better than how they're handled now. With IPFS you at least get a hash of what you're looking for. That's a lot more useful than what you get now. The only thing you get now is "404".

I'm seeing a specific disconnect between the people who are into it and people who don't get it: they have ways of answering the question "why would someone want to host your content?"

The people who are into this idea realize that the content itself often carries its own incentive to share. Given the right infrastructure, a lot of stuff will host itself because people will want to share it. That's how bittorrent works.

Also, there will likely be stuff that falls out of fashion. The test of time will not disappear, but these technologies make it much easier for people who care about preservation.

Re: HTTP is obsolete. It's time for the Distributed Web (2015)

#160

Post by blurbleblurble » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:59 PM UTC

ivanhoe wrote: post #138

blurbleblurble wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't literally mean a Raspberry Pi. Raspberry Pi is the Apple 2 of what I'm imagining. I'm talking about some next generation stuff, picture a Firestick with a much more refined iteration of sandstorm, with distributed apps that have hardly even been conceived of right today in 2017. If my roommate can plug a Roku into the TV, and knows how to use Ableton Live and Squarespace, there's absolutely no reason he could…

But you still have all maintenance related problems? How do you upgrade a hard disk or memory, go to their home? What happens if their home net is down or slow, no one can visit the site? Back in the days I was running a few web servers from my office directly, and it's a lot of extra work that is just not worth it.

There's still plenty of room for paid hosting services. But this lowers the bar in a major way.

If their home network is down, hopefully their office network isn't, or their business partners' networks aren't.

Also, these kinds of applications are practically begging for mesh networks. So what it means for a home network to be "down" could change a lot in the coming years.