Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#211

Post by ghaff » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:37 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #203

ghaff wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. And I don't think any US state would seriously contemplate secession today however polarized politics are. That said, if any state or group of states did overwhelmingly want to breakaway from the US, it seems unlikely that there would be meaningful support for the federal government to go to war to stop them.

There have been the Calexit movement [1] and various movements in Texas [2]. Texas in particular has some substantial poll numbers. Given that states rights are far less than they were in the 19th century, I expect the US government to be even more likely to prevent succession in the infinitesimal chance it would happen. [1] http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.or…

I think it's one thing to tell a pollster "OMG, if Hillary wins Texas should leave the US" and it's another to actually vote for it. And, even if one supports the idea that states should be able to do this, it's still reasonable to argue that it should require a significant supermajority.

Your point about the erosion of states rights is certainly fair. In any case, it's hard to say what "prevent secession" means without the context of the circumstances.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#212

Post by ringaroundthetx » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #84

ringaroundthetx wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. States in spain are incapable of declaring independence from the national government. This was a democratic process. A democratic process inside one state, just to get that state to say it is separate, doesn't change that. So the parent's question still s…

> The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. Are you sure the same people who voted for that constitution are the ones doing the protesting ? I'm not sure about Spain, but I know for a fact that I didn't vote for the constitution of my country, in fact it was written about 160 years before I was e…

From what I recall, the thing making this referendum illegal something from the 1970s....

Not sure if that changes your opinion

and it also doesn't answer the question of why the national government is bothering anyway

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#213

Post by dgut » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:50 PM UTC

Tech-Noir wrote: post #196

dgut wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only if you believe "Europe" = "nation states" or an EU super state. Europe, as we know it, is a set of "large" nation-states that made enormous contributions to humankind. These contributions wouldn't have been possible if Europe was a number of small fragmented states with their own languages and customs. > maiming and potential killing of civilians by police How do you equal shooting rubber bullets to "potential…

> Europe, as we know it, is a set of "large" nation-states that made enormous contributions to humankind. These contributions wouldn't have been possible if Europe was a number of small fragmented states with their own languages and customs. Even if that were true - and I don't see any evidence from you - how does it back up your claim that there wouldn't be much left of Europe if Europeans had more control over thei…

> Even if that were true - and I don't see any evidence from you.

History is not your strong side then, I guess.

> Because I know what rubber bullets are, and what they can do. Whereas you appear to have no idea.

Rubber bullets are nonlethal and not meant to cause serious injuries or death unless of course misused at very close range. Participating in an illegal uprising isn't going to be consequence-free.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#214

Post by ino » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 4:54 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #204

ino wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. The sovereignty of Catalonia falls on theirs (if they wish so).

One way to look at it is that the sovereign country of Spain has a right to split itself up in two countries. Therefore all Spaniards should have a say. Another way to look at it is that every sub-entity of any country has a right to unilaterally declare itself independent for whatever reason (often because it is wealthier). I think neither of these views is sufficient. We have to accept that this is a tricky questio…

How about the third way, where a region is increasingly unhappy with the central government (look at the election results in the past 20 years), and wants to have a legal option of getting out of the union if/when they start feeling opressed.

People have been talking about this for decades and nothing has been done.

How do you think people in Galicia and Basque Country are feeling now? Is this what should make them proud of being Spanish?

Also many people are tired of the monarchy.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#215

Post by musage » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

fcanela wrote: post #42

fcanela wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am uploading it so you can see it. (Nice downvote before letting me prove my words :) )

I am not excusing neither of the behaviors: both violents and not professional policemen are doing wrong. All your text is based not in what I said, but in yours interpretations of my words I am adding references for the women issue too.

Well sorry then for reading your brief comments that way. Since my Spanish sucks I can't blame you.

But come on, we see cops doing things like jumping on people. Do their colleagues protest that? Do they go on strike until such actions are brought to court? No? Then they're all not "professional" enough in my eyes.

"Unprofessional" also applies to things like saying "hey buddy" to someone at a traffic stop instead of a more formal greeting. Why do you call the violent behavior of protesters violent, but violent and kind of sadistic behavior of police "unprofessional"? And apart from my interpretation, the bit about guilt not being transferable also stands. And it's not a minor point on the side.

> both violents and not professional policemen are doing wrong

As far as I'm concerned, that's like saying a rape victim is bad at mario cart. Police violence, any abuses of official authority but certainly such egregious ones, play in a completely different ball park. And just like the abuse of authority (and gear) don't justify attacks on cops, attacks on cops don't justify other abuses.

Thanks for pointing out that one thing was faked, I wish faking something like that should be punished like committing the act. But I remain in firm opposition to anyone who uses it to excuse anything else. If you want the waters muddled that way, accept guilt for anything anyone ever did. If you don't, don't muddle them. It's a binary choice.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#216

Post by kgwgk » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

xenophonf wrote: post #152

notspanishflu wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that lie, I can't help you.

I think you can assume goodwill here. If OP is mistaken, clue them in. Reputable sources of info on the history of Catalonia are plentiful, whether online or in the library. In this case, OP is probably referring to the Spanish Civil War, which indeed happened within living memory and prior to which Catalonia was autonomous under the Second Spanish Republic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia#Republic…

It's true, Catalonia already proclaimed its independence on the evening of October 6th 1934 (it only lasted until the early morning of October 7th 1934, though).

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#217

Post by stonemetal » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 5:14 PM UTC

onemore2 wrote: post #55

bad_user wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

This is lame reasoning. If that was the case democracy is just a dictatorship of the majority. Or a husband have a word when the wife wants to divorce. You are just saying that if Catalonia wants independence they have to go to war and win it, because the Constitutions says the country is indivisible. Maybe you want the USA reintegrated into the UK, because british citizens didn't vote for the secession.

No, as he says Spain can vote to split amicably or they can go to war. The US isn't apart of the UK because they won the war. Virginia is a part of the US because the south lost the war. For an amicable split you would see something like India and the UK.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#218

Post by freech » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 5:27 PM UTC

How does voting (on anything) not qualify as speech?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#219

Post by msh » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 5:28 PM UTC

dgut wrote: post #210

msh wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are the foundations shakier?

Separate armies, laws, currency, un-democratic state, considerably shorter time period, a national id (Catalonia has never been a state before).

Catalonia have been a state. According to Wikipedia it was last a state in 1659, Norway was not a independent state between 1537 and 1905 so I don't think the time period are that dissimilar. Spain was also not Democratic until less than 50 years ago.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#220

Post by thomasz » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 5:31 PM UTC

pipio21 wrote: post #106

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

Very simple. The idea was making the last normal elections an independence referendum, had independentist won. They lost. So they decided they would fly forward. Most of them, like Mas and Puigdemont were friends or partners of Puyol, who actually manage to steal hundreds of millions of euros, probably thousands, they are going to jail anyway. They have nothing to lose and lots to win. Puyol stole for 40 years withou…

> For me as an Spaniard who works in center Europe who last week was in Catalunya is obvious who is using violence. It is not the police. There are people trowing stones to police, they are insulting and spitting to them, they are doing scratches to them.

https://twitter.com/VictorHR3/status/914424974504587264