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How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

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Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#431

Post by alexandercrohde »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #394
zug_zug wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well delivery can be just as important as the message. It sounds like she alienated male-audiences by implying it's a problem with a whole gender instead of implying it's a gender-neutral trait. After all, how does she know who does the cleaning, planning, keeping track of birthdays in my relationship? And I don't think it's fair to dismiss her gender-targeting delivery as a trivial detail such as grammar, she's clea…

> "Well delivery can be just as important as the message." Only if the delivery is offensive, otherwise the message is more important. To give an example, I'm a native English speaker, and when I speak with some non-native English speakers they can make some quirky decisions on how they deliver their message. However, if I've understood the underlying message, I'll look past it, and address what they meant. To bring…

No, I actually don't get her larger point. She describes frustrations with her husband (which I feel are not generalizable), and I don't even accept her framework necessarily (it generally seeks to use blame to resolve a marital issue which I find counterproductive, a therapist would never use a word like 'fault').

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#432

Post by zug_zug »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #399
zug_zug wrote: post #231

If the goal of this article is to validate frustrated wives, maybe it has succeeded. But if conversely, it was aiming at making a compelling case to men I don't think it has. I for one feel stereotyped and vilified (and I also feel at risk of being criticized for even admitting my own feelings). What I'd recommend the author do is- 1. Reflect on her feelings. What does she really want, what is it really about / a sym…

> "I for one feel stereotyped and vilified (and I also feel at risk of being criticized for even admitting my own feelings)." If I can ask you a question without you feeling criticised... why do you think you've taken this article personally? It's interesting to me as I don't see anything remotely controversial in the article. It becomes an article for a news site not because it's a novel occurrence, but because it's…

If you don't see the subheadding as remotely controversial, I have to wonder if your agenda is advancement of women or advancement of equality. If this piece didn't want to be sexist it could have removed gender entirely from the piece.

Why do you think it didn't do that?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#433

Post by ZenoArrow »

zug_zug wrote: post #432
ZenoArrow wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I for one feel stereotyped and vilified (and I also feel at risk of being criticized for even admitting my own feelings)." If I can ask you a question without you feeling criticised... why do you think you've taken this article personally? It's interesting to me as I don't see anything remotely controversial in the article. It becomes an article for a news site not because it's a novel occurrence, but because it's…

If you don't see the subheadding as remotely controversial, I have to wonder if your agenda is advancement of women or advancement of equality. If this piece didn't want to be sexist it could have removed gender entirely from the piece. Why do you think it didn't do that?

> "If this piece didn't want to be sexist it could have removed gender entirely from the piece."

Reference to a cultural phenomenon backed up with statistical evidence is not inherently sexist. If you don't think the issues described are statistically more likely to be experienced by women, even though there's strong evidence to the contrary, what message do you think that sends out?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#434

Post by lowbloodsugar »

nkrisc wrote: post #29

This is a topic where the more I learned about it the more I opened my eyes to it and saw it happening on my own life. I'm very easy going and there isn't much I get too worked up about. My wife, on the other hand, is a meticulous planner. I could see her getting stressed out making decisions for a vacation. I realized that by not caring, I wasn't helping and offloading the burden to her. Now I truly didn't care if w…

(This response is not to disagree with above)

My wife is not a meticulous planner. Now she is required to be. Now she runs a household, two teens, school, bills, planning, holidays, all of it.

Some programmers here have said "Well, I bring in the money, its fine for my wife to have this as a full time job".

Imagine if suddenly, instead of being a programmer, your job was now procurement and planning for a stockroom including suppliers. Like, wait, what? Imagine if this was the only job you could get now (its a thought experiment ok).

So you went from "what your day looks like as a programmer" to "what your day looks like running a warehouse, calling suppliers, negotiating deals, negotiating better deals, dealing with employees who are sick, employees who steal things, blah blah".

There are people who like that job, or are at least good at it. I would hate that job. Now imagine your new job is "running a household": making calls, dealing with mental illness (maybe thats just my family), school, school reports, children dealing with school pressure, hiring a cleaner, firing the shitty cleaner you hired, reporting the stolen jewelry to the police, hiring a new cleaner with better references, etc

Again, thats not a job that I want. I make a ton of money, I do have conversations with other people and I enjoy it. I would die in this other job. I'm not qualified and I don't have the personality for it.

Neither does my wife. But its her full time job. And she has no choice. For the next 8 years at least.

It doesn't matter that your job makes more or all the money. It matters that your wife (or partner) is trapped in a dead-end job that she hates and sucks at and she cannot quit.

I am going to go and have a conversation with her about taking over some of her "duties".

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#435

Post by ZenoArrow »

logfromblammo wrote: post #428
ZenoArrow wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It was an unreasonable request to begin with. She wanted two things. She wanted someone else to clean the house. This is fine. It happens all the time. But the second thing was that it still had to be done to her exacting standards." Nope, you missed the point. The point was the wife wanted a day free from housework, which isn't unreasonable. The husband screwed up because by doing the cleaning instead of hiring s…

She didn't ask for what she really wanted, so she didn't get it. This story is repeated every day, everywhere around the globe. She made a wish, and it was granted by a monkey's paw, or an evil genie, instead of a fairy godmother. Part of the job that I get paid for is to help people figure out how to say what they want in a way that other people can understand well enough to give that to them. The amount I get paid…

> "She didn't ask for what she really wanted, so she didn't get it."

Incorrect. Read this...

"My husband waited for me to change my mind to an "easier" gift than housecleaning, something he could one-click order on Amazon. Disappointed by my unwavering desire, the day before Mother's Day he called a single service, decided they were too expensive, and vowed to clean the bathrooms himself."

The husband understood what the wife wanted, because he made a half-arsed attempt to meet her request, and then tried to get out of it. Does that sound like the actions of someone who doesn't know what his partner wants? The husband wouldn't have made such a song and dance about the gift request if he didn't know what his partner had asked for.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#436

Post by ZenoArrow »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #431
ZenoArrow wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Well delivery can be just as important as the message." Only if the delivery is offensive, otherwise the message is more important. To give an example, I'm a native English speaker, and when I speak with some non-native English speakers they can make some quirky decisions on how they deliver their message. However, if I've understood the underlying message, I'll look past it, and address what they meant. To bring…

No, I actually don't get her larger point. She describes frustrations with her husband (which I feel are not generalizable), and I don't even accept her framework necessarily (it generally seeks to use blame to resolve a marital issue which I find counterproductive, a therapist would never use a word like 'fault').

Let's imagine a more extreme example to make the point clearer. Imagine you have to become a live-in carer for an elderly relative, and they rely on you to take care of their every need, with very little in the way of time off. Can you see that such a situation, whilst still something that can be carried with dutifully with a minimum of fuss, could still be emotionally draining for someone? If so, what do you think causes the situation to be emotionally draining?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#437

Post by alexandercrohde »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #436
alexandercrohde wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I actually don't get her larger point. She describes frustrations with her husband (which I feel are not generalizable), and I don't even accept her framework necessarily (it generally seeks to use blame to resolve a marital issue which I find counterproductive, a therapist would never use a word like 'fault').

Let's imagine a more extreme example to make the point clearer. Imagine you have to become a live-in carer for an elderly relative, and they rely on you to take care of their every need, with very little in the way of time off. Can you see that such a situation, whilst still something that can be carried with dutifully with a minimum of fuss, could still be emotionally draining for someone? If so, what do you think c…

So I still don't get her larger point. I think we can all agree emotional draining exists, as you articulated. I also agree it happens in relationships. But then she drags gender into it and loses me entirely.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#438

Post by alexandercrohde »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #433
zug_zug wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't see the subheadding as remotely controversial, I have to wonder if your agenda is advancement of women or advancement of equality. If this piece didn't want to be sexist it could have removed gender entirely from the piece. Why do you think it didn't do that?

> "If this piece didn't want to be sexist it could have removed gender entirely from the piece." Reference to a cultural phenomenon backed up with statistical evidence is not inherently sexist. If you don't think the issues described are statistically more likely to be experienced by women, even though there's strong evidence to the contrary, what message do you think that sends out?

What statistical evidence? I think a wide-ranging study on this topic would be interesting.

However, I also don't know what the point would be of breaking it down by gender (any more than you'd break it down by race).

Wouldn't you be better served to have instead spent that time figuring out how to fix the problem (how do you explain it effectively) rather than whom to blame?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#439

Post by ZenoArrow »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #437
ZenoArrow wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's imagine a more extreme example to make the point clearer. Imagine you have to become a live-in carer for an elderly relative, and they rely on you to take care of their every need, with very little in the way of time off. Can you see that such a situation, whilst still something that can be carried with dutifully with a minimum of fuss, could still be emotionally draining for someone? If so, what do you think c…

So I still don't get her larger point. I think we can all agree emotional draining exists, as you articulated. I also agree it happens in relationships. But then she drags gender into it and loses me entirely.

Gender is "dragged" into it because our social norms are keeping unequal balance of relationship responsibilities alive. The article touches on this when the author describes the difference in behaviour between her children. It's possible to see this anecdote as something that reflects on the innate difference in the personalities of her children, but there is something to said beyond that. It's the whole nature vs. nurture debate again. I can see that the experiences in early childhood shaped the person I am today, and I don't think it's any different for the children of today. How a child is praised (or not praised) shapes what they think of as normal. Can you see that it's possible to reinforce a certain view of what's "men's work" and what's "women's work"?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#440

Post by ZenoArrow »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #438
ZenoArrow wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If this piece didn't want to be sexist it could have removed gender entirely from the piece." Reference to a cultural phenomenon backed up with statistical evidence is not inherently sexist. If you don't think the issues described are statistically more likely to be experienced by women, even though there's strong evidence to the contrary, what message do you think that sends out?

What statistical evidence? I think a wide-ranging study on this topic would be interesting. However, I also don't know what the point would be of breaking it down by gender (any more than you'd break it down by race). Wouldn't you be better served to have instead spent that time figuring out how to fix the problem (how do you explain it effectively) rather than whom to blame?

> "What statistical evidence? I think a wide-ranging study on this topic would be interesting."

Here's one study, there are others available online too...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170926105448.h...

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