China orders N.K. firms to close down within 120 days • Hacker News Board

Re: China orders N.K. firms to close down within 120 days

#121

Post by cryptonector » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 4:33 AM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #50

thevardanian wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libya was diplomatic failure of epic proportions. Furthermore the value of NK isn't the people, but the geographical position. It is a well known fact that China is amping up its projection of power, and using it to claim territory. Doklam is the most recent example. Furthermore I don't think China gives two shits about forcing people into doing what it wills. 25 million people is basically a negligible amount for Ch…

Libya was failure of aggression. Where was there diplomacy happening? Hillary Clinton's quotation on the diplomacy was, "We came, we saw, he died." https://www.democracynow.org/2016/3/3/the_libya_gamble_insid...

Libya was a failure of President Obama to honor a deal made by President Bush.

Qaddafi gave the U.S. his centrifuges and other equipment, which in turn laid bare the A. Q. Khan network and Iran's program, and also helped the U.S. and Israel hack Iran's program to slow it down. And just what did Qaddafi get for his troubles? He got killed.

After that betrayal no one will make any deals like that with the U.S. again. To say that President Obama's Libya adventure was destructive is to put it mildly.

Re: China orders N.K. firms to close down within 120 days

#122

Post by ionised » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 10:01 AM UTC

thevardanian wrote: post #30

gypsy_boots wrote: post #11

This makes me nervous and I fear that Kim Jung Un will have to do something big in order to save face. I hope we make him feel that he has a non-violent way to posture for his people as that's really what this is all about: posturing.

Honestly I don't get this sentiment. NK isn't some rationalistic actor. The NK problem can never ever be solved by diplomatic resolve. This goes beyond mere saving face, or diplomacy. This is simply about maintaining and expanding power. That is sometimes you need to be confrontational. Sometimes you need to stop being Chamberlain, and start being Churchill. Preferably before it's too late. What else is their develop…

> Honestly I don't get this sentiment. NK isn't some rationalistic actor.

Of course it is.

If you think about it from the perspective of a dynasty trying to save its own skin under any circumstances to avoid having to go through something akin to another Nuremberg trials, then everything the Kim leadership does is rational.

They are even willing to point nuclear weapons at the world and subject the North Korean people to no end of physical and mental abuses just to maintain their grip on power in a country where they live like God-Kings.

Re: China orders N.K. firms to close down within 120 days

#123

Post by ionised » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 10:05 AM UTC

thevardanian wrote: post #61

gumby wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NK isn't some rationalistic actor. I don't see why you say this. I wouldn't say they are especially competent, but they seem to have stayed in existence and played off various larger rivals successfully for 70 odd years.

Put another way. They're not going to play ball. Things cannot be solved diplomatically. Unless you call breaking all diplomatic promises, and developing nukes diplomacy. A rational actor is a nation that is predictable, and is willing to uphold their word, and agreements. If promises are broken, agreements torn a part I don't think that state is a "rational" actor.

> A rational actor is a nation that is predictable, and is willing to uphold their word, and agreements. If promises are broken, agreements torn a part I don't think that state is a "rational" actor.

No it isn't.

A rational actor is one who acts rationally.

If survival and self-interest is your goal then lying and breaking agreements might be a perfectly rational approach.

It depends entirely what is to be gained.

Re: China orders N.K. firms to close down within 120 days

#124

Post by ionised » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 10:06 AM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #80

irrational wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So by that definition it seems that the USA would not be considered a rational actor since the head of the nation and the majority in congress are pretty much the opposite of predictable and willing to uphold their word.

Perhaps true, but also completely off topic. It makes you look like you're just looking for an excuse to score points, rather than contributing to the conversation we're having.

It's very much on-topic.

You discomfort with certain truths of your own country is not a reason to dismiss what he said.

Re: China orders N.K. firms to close down within 120 days

#125

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 12:38 PM UTC

aquadrop wrote: post #63

gypsy_boots wrote: post #11

This makes me nervous and I fear that Kim Jung Un will have to do something big in order to save face. I hope we make him feel that he has a non-violent way to posture for his people as that's really what this is all about: posturing.

He can't actually do anything serious, because he understands that this instance it will be over. His power is only in menacing the world, like the dog barking on a leash. If he crosses the line he loses it. The world had to start pressuring North Korea long time ago. It must be an effort of all countries in the UN to make North Korea abandon its political regime and reunite South Korea. There should be all sorts of…

[deleted]

Re: China orders N.K. firms to close down within 120 days

#126

Post by sparkzilla » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 2:33 PM UTC

vadman wrote: post #92

sparkzilla wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expect the nukes to fall when the north wind doth blow

To carry the fallout onto South Korea, and the US militry stationed there? Brilliant!

I will report this back to the Dear Leader, he will find your plan very interesting!

Re: China orders N.K. firms to close down within 120 days

#127

Post by myrandomcomment » Fri, Sep 29, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

ckozlowski wrote: post #82

myrandomcomment wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There would be no day 3 or 4. The US knowns in detail every inch of the DMZ and the NK side. The US counter-battery is the best in the world. Every NK gun that fires would be bracket and destroyed in the 1st 30 minutes. After they are gone any other mapped location would be hit for good measure. The ROK Army and the US Army would start to roll right over the DMZ in the 1st hour. The Air Force and Army attack helicopt…

I'd sure like to believe you're right. While I have every reason to believe the allies would prevail, I'm also wary of overly optimistic timelines. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

I hope so too. For the most part people do not understand just how over powered the US military is compared to the rest of the world. The worlds largest Air Force is the USAF, the world 2nd largest Air Forces the US Army.

The surgical dismantling of the air defenses around Baghdad in the 1st gulf war was a complete and udder-shock to the Russians. It was the 3rd largest and sophistcated in the world. We removed it in 48 hours for almost no loss. That was with 1980 tech where you needed someone to hold the lasers on target.

We could have ended the 2nd Iraq war and Afganistain in a few months if the military was under the same rules of engagement as WW2. However the destruction and civilian death would be appalling. If there is a war started by NK it is very likely the military would not have the constrains placed on it like Iraq or Afganistain. It would most likely look like WW2. Think Dresden.

The job of the military is to kill people and break things. When they are told to win without the limits we place on them now it would be terrifying.

PS. I know people will ask. Let’s say you are in a city and there are baddies in a building shooting at you. Right now because of constrains to civilian damage, you get the fun job of attacking the location to clear them out with your squad. It sucks and someone on your team is likely to get wounded. If the limits are removed, you call in a fire mission, building is removed from planet, move on to next one. That is what a war with NK would look like. Are we evil for doing this? I am not sure. I believe that fighting this way will end a conflict much quicker over all and in the long term be better for all those involved.