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How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

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Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#391

Post by ZenoArrow »

gkya wrote: post #357
Mz wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you are uncomfortable that my ex husband was insulted in public, though he was not named. But me being insulted in public is not a problem. Every single remark here by you errs on the side of some man's feelings mattering a helluva lot more than mine. I am not implying you are a sexist, but your actions continue to err in a particular direction. If you don't like the impression that makes, you can just stop doing…

I've taken enough of this childish stuff. I did apologise because I was wrong, and I did say that you were offensive, because you were. You attack me and expect me to care about your feelings, and you attack the entire HN community and expect them to back you. I really repent having started this thread.

> "You attack me and expect me to care about your feelings"

Mz did not attack you, you've blown their comments out of all proportion.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#392

Post by cellularmitosis »

brighteyes wrote: post #78

This article is flamebait. The title is "Women Aren't Nags", below a big middle finger to the reader, so it's not like it tries to hide it. And much of the article is saying that men are emotionally immature or worse. For example, she asks her husband to get the house clean for mother's day. He assumes she meant what she asked for, and does a deep clean of the bathrooms himself. But > What I wanted was for him to ask…

> What I wanted was for him to ask friends on Facebook for a recommendation, call four or five more services, do the emotional labor I would have done if the job had fallen to me.

This one really jumped out at me, because even if I had stuck to the letter of her request (hiring a service rather than doing it myself), I would have fallen far, far short of her expectation.

Calling four or five services? Embarrassing myself by spamming my friends on social media for a maid-service recommendation? You have got to be kidding me.

How about just hiring one at random, try them out for a few months, and then decide if you like their service? Or maybe spend 30 seconds on Yelp?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#393

Post by ZenoArrow »

klipt wrote: post #291
zie wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say she is a meticulous planner, and maybe that's the case, but maybe you are missing the point(as is most of the other commenters here). the point isn't whether it's Restaurant A or B, the point is you have to make a decision about A OR B, or even going out to a restaurant at all. Someone has to think about: lets go out for dinner tonight @ restaurant A. Women generally do that thinking, because like you said, y…

> Women generally do that thinking Funny how the stereotype reverses after marriage. While dating, the trope (especially with platforms like OkCupid) is that the man has to perform all the emotional labor: He has to write tons of messages just to get a first date, pick a good restaurant (and pay for it!), be witty and entertaining all evening, and be just the right amount of seductive (but not come on too strong) in…

Dating isn't one-sided. A woman is still expected to be charming/interesting/fun to talk to. If a man sees dating as one-sided, are they really that interested in the person they're conversing with or are they just trying to trick them into bed?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#394

Post by ZenoArrow »

zug_zug wrote: post #368
BarkingChicken wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that one of the things I'm continuously disappointed in is that comments like this tend to get more exposure and agreement than the concept that the author is trying to bring to light. I get so excited to see discussion about these concepts, but then the idea gets ignored because the author isn't using exactly the right words. It really makes me feel even more isolated and unheard. Yes, communication is a ver…

Well delivery can be just as important as the message. It sounds like she alienated male-audiences by implying it's a problem with a whole gender instead of implying it's a gender-neutral trait. After all, how does she know who does the cleaning, planning, keeping track of birthdays in my relationship? And I don't think it's fair to dismiss her gender-targeting delivery as a trivial detail such as grammar, she's clea…

> "Well delivery can be just as important as the message."

Only if the delivery is offensive, otherwise the message is more important.

To give an example, I'm a native English speaker, and when I speak with some non-native English speakers they can make some quirky decisions on how they deliver their message. However, if I've understood the underlying message, I'll look past it, and address what they meant.

To bring it back to the topic at hand, meta discussions like the one we're having now often start out as a form of deflection. Regardless of the term 'emotional work' (I prefer 'hidden work', you may have a different preference), do you agree that the underlying message of the article is broadly correct? It's not so much about who takes on the 'hidden work', but rather it's about the toll it takes.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#395

Post by ZenoArrow »

logfromblammo wrote: post #331
BarkingChicken wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be missing the point. The gift that she wanted was the house cleaning service. She had already been planning/considering hiring someone anyway. The gift was that she would not have to do the work to find, vet, make the calls, research, arrange payment, schedule, etc. for this task. The gift was supposed to be him taking over that work. > The gift, for me, was not so much in the cleaning itself but t…

It was an unreasonable request to begin with. She wanted two things. She wanted someone else to clean the house. This is fine. It happens all the time. But the second thing was that it still had to be done to her exacting standards. So the request was, in essence, "First, become me. Then do this thing that I want in exactly the way I would do it." Hidden requirements. The husband, not understanding this, went about h…

> "It was an unreasonable request to begin with.

She wanted two things. She wanted someone else to clean the house. This is fine. It happens all the time. But the second thing was that it still had to be done to her exacting standards."

Nope, you missed the point.

The point was the wife wanted a day free from housework, which isn't unreasonable. The husband screwed up because by doing the cleaning instead of hiring someone in (which was suggested they could afford from money she earned) he left her needing to do the rest of the housework, like looking after the kids. The end result = no day off.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#396

Post by ZenoArrow »

dleslie wrote: post #177
seattle_spring wrote: post #85

I love working 10+ hours a day to pay for 100% of me and my fiancé's expenses, coming home, cooking dinner, and cleaning up everything while she studies for med school; going to bed early so I can do some shopping before work; and then being told I'm a useless man by some nobody with a shitty marriage on a website that's supposed to be about technology.

> on a website that's supposed to be about technology This is what irks me most. I come to Hacker News for the tech, and yet... This is here? What is this article doing on HN?

> "What is this article doing on HN?"

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

"On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Ideological or political battle or talking points. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic."

This article is in line with "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity".

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#397

Post by abandonliberty »

I'm a male, but I have this traditionally female role in my relationship. While the author's relationship may or may not be disfunctional, this is a real thing. An equitable relationship balances out this contribution.

The error here is confusing equality for sameness. We should celebrate and capitalize on our different strengths, preferences, and (since I'm heterosexual) genders.

We are not - and shouldn't be - the same. But we can equally contribute to our relationships in a way that befits ourselves.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#398

Post by xsmasher »

logfromblammo wrote: post #302
nkrisc wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're exactly right, this was the point I was trying to make. I never realized this before. I used to only see it rationally, that she should choose since she cares and I don't. But then it turned into her always choosing and having to decide and plan it. Once I realized this is what was happening I made a conscious effort to ease that burden and take my share of the emotional labor. Of course choosing a restaurant…

My spouse has assumed the responsibility for ensuring that the family has a dinner every evening. I have assumed the responsibility for ensuring that every individual family member is capable of providing their own dinner from available materials every evening, if they choose to eat a dinner. This is "give a man a fish" versus "teach him how to fish". In this, we are at cross-purposes. I can prepare salubrious meals.…

I'm not sure your preference for running the gas tank down to empty before refilling it is more logical than her preference to keep it topped off.

It sounds like you each have your preferences, and the tension comes from one (or both?) of you assume that your emotional preference is somehow objectively or factually correct.

Maybe if you indulge her on the pantry situation to assist in her happiness, she can indulge some preference of yours that's particularly important to you?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#399

Post by ZenoArrow »

zug_zug wrote: post #231

If the goal of this article is to validate frustrated wives, maybe it has succeeded. But if conversely, it was aiming at making a compelling case to men I don't think it has. I for one feel stereotyped and vilified (and I also feel at risk of being criticized for even admitting my own feelings). What I'd recommend the author do is- 1. Reflect on her feelings. What does she really want, what is it really about / a sym…

> "I for one feel stereotyped and vilified (and I also feel at risk of being criticized for even admitting my own feelings)."

If I can ask you a question without you feeling criticised... why do you think you've taken this article personally?

It's interesting to me as I don't see anything remotely controversial in the article. It becomes an article for a news site not because it's a novel occurrence, but because it's commonplace and frequently overlooked. Even if it's not an issue in your relationship, can you accept that it happens in other relationships?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#400

Post by ZenoArrow »

rootlocus wrote: post #148
musha68k wrote: post #6

I found this comic on the topic also insightful: “You should’ve asked” https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

Two things I don't understand. First, are the women depicted in this comic stay at home moms? If so then yes, I would expect them to take care of the house. Regardless of gender. If they both have jobs, then the workload should be shared. It's not about gender. It's about distributing the work. If he goes to work 8 hours a day, she can work 8 hours a day. Staying at home and not doing anything is nothing short of dis…

> "First, are the women depicted in this comic stay at home moms?"

Did you even read the comic? In the first line...

"Back when I was in my first job, a colleague invited me over for dinner."

What do you think that tells you about their working background? Do they sound like stay at home mums?

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