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A “right to repair” movement tools up

economist.com

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Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#161

Post by TeMPOraL »

kartickv wrote: post #156
BartSaM wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, when Steam decides that you have violated their ToS in some way, they will close your account and lock you out of everything you bought. This happens, rarely, but happens. Do you want to be dependant on an idea of a corporation that they will treat you fair? Are you OK to give away your washing machine and oven just because you had troubles with finances and you missed one payment?

We're more dependent on corporations when we buy things, since we have given them all the money upfront. A service model gives us more leverage. As someone who had to throw away a washing machine because the company wouldn't service it, I would have very much preferred a rental model where the loss would have been theirs. To flip your question: Are you okay not being able to buy a washing machine because you couldn't…

> We're more dependent on corporations when we buy things, since we have given them all the money upfront. A service model gives us more leverage.

No, we aren't and no, it doesn't. Buying things up-front means your interaction with a corporation is brief and to the point. With service model, they get to gouge you for money and restrict the things you can do with the item you now don't own, but rent.

> Are you okay not being able to buy a washing machine because you couldn't make a significant one-time payment?

There are plenty of ways to amortize that using third parties that have no interest in limiting your control over the washing machine.

Also, it's you who get to choose when to do the purchase. Once you enter a contract, you'd better have a stable paycheck for the entire duration of it, or you'll be SOL.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#162

Post by WillReplyfFood »

stefco_ wrote: post #6

I hope at some point we'll start including recycling/disassembly and replacement externalities into price somehow. I don't know how you would do that in a fair way, but it is frustrating that there aren't a ton of corrective market forces to encourage manufacturers to make highly reusable, repairable, recyclable devices. All of this electronics churn is environmentally terrible, and it's frustrating that, as with car…

Post-Moore, that argument of acceleratism is done for anyway.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#163

Post by wfo »

kartickv wrote: post #156
BartSaM wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, when Steam decides that you have violated their ToS in some way, they will close your account and lock you out of everything you bought. This happens, rarely, but happens. Do you want to be dependant on an idea of a corporation that they will treat you fair? Are you OK to give away your washing machine and oven just because you had troubles with finances and you missed one payment?

We're more dependent on corporations when we buy things, since we have given them all the money upfront. A service model gives us more leverage. As someone who had to throw away a washing machine because the company wouldn't service it, I would have very much preferred a rental model where the loss would have been theirs. To flip your question: Are you okay not being able to buy a washing machine because you couldn't…

The entire point of the article is that you (or a local technician) should be allowed and able to repair your washing machine and not rely on the company exclusively to fix it. Having to throw it away is exactly because you don't really own it without the right to repair. You "own" a machine that it is impossible and illegal to fix or modify, which is not ownership at all, which means you already are renting it as a service, the company has just lied to you by redefining ownership in a way that makes them more money.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#164

Post by TeMPOraL »

amelius wrote: post #68
bo1024 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you are being downvoted for asking a question, but I think it's incredibly important to educate people on the dangers of your proposal, i.e. to answer it. A short answer is "everything Stallman has ever warned us about (most of which has already come to pass)." A longer answer contains many, many reasons, so I'll just throw out some paragraphs. Ownership is more than psychological, it's about your ri…

So you don't think that we can capture all of what you said in laws that protect the consumer? Also, how is using a service different than paying someone to do a job for you. E.g. paying someone to do your laundry instead of buying a washing machine. The person you hire can choose any means of doing your laundry, including putting a washing machine in your home. If that's causing problems with exploitation, isn't tha…

> Also, how is using a service different than paying someone to do a job for you. E.g. paying someone to do your laundry instead of buying a washing machine. The person you hire can choose any means of doing your laundry, including putting a washing machine in your home.

It isn't, and this illustrates another problem: with service model, you're much more tied to having a stable income source. If you're temporarily not able to pay someone, they won't come to do the work for you. If you're not able to keep paying for the service, the provider will remotely suspend or terminate it. Whereas, if you own a device, you can keep using it even though you're 3 months out of a job, with no new one in sight.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#165

Post by icebraining »

Teever wrote: post #140
amichal wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most "Recycled" electronics are sent back to china at least in part Edit: summary at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste_in_China

Sure but it seems a little inefficient to send them individually is my point.

You never ship them individually, you use containers. And it's probably quite efficient: the shipping boats have to return to China anyway to get more stuff.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#166

Post by icebraining »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #154
thechao wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that a regulation along the lines of "if you sell it, you must give the customer the ability to dispose of it" would be nice. And, yes, I do think that means Amazon would have to have some sort of bricks-and-mortar operation: at minimum there must be a shop owned by someone , which Amazon has a deal with, that you'd be able to drop your discarded Amajunk off at. Also, I also think we should have a ca…

Tax on gasoline like that would only affect the poorest of citizens. Charge it on shares of gasoline producing companies and car companies so their share holders scream at them to move to less carbon-y energy creation mechanisms.

The end result would be the same, they would just pass the costs to the consumer.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#167

Post by jdavis703 »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #154
thechao wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that a regulation along the lines of "if you sell it, you must give the customer the ability to dispose of it" would be nice. And, yes, I do think that means Amazon would have to have some sort of bricks-and-mortar operation: at minimum there must be a shop owned by someone , which Amazon has a deal with, that you'd be able to drop your discarded Amajunk off at. Also, I also think we should have a ca…

Tax on gasoline like that would only affect the poorest of citizens. Charge it on shares of gasoline producing companies and car companies so their share holders scream at them to move to less carbon-y energy creation mechanisms.

The poorest citizens don't own cars.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#168

Post by JumpCrisscross »

oneplane wrote: post #103
alphaalpha101 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, what ends up happening in most cases is that people make products, give them a ridiculous 1y or 2y warranty, then claim that if there're any problems after that time period you'll have to pay to repair or replace.

In our country we have a law that states a product has to live up to it's reasonably expected life time. So while a manufacturer might give it a warranty and the retailer might give it some special warranty, ultimately, the retailer (which in some cases is the manufacturer if you buy directly) is responsible no matter what. That doesn't go for consumables or software, or if you break it yourself obviously, but a phon…

What country? This sounds like a great way to poison a court system with bullshit lawsuits.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#169

Post by WillReplyfFood »

amichal wrote: post #73
Teever wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, does Amazon ship the junk back to China too and then China disassembles it and ships the elements back to their respective holes in the ground? It seems like a better idea would be to just have Amazon give you a voucher for the recycling fees in your local community.

Most "Recycled" electronics are sent back to china at least in part Edit: summary at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste_in_China

Most Recycled electronics are shortcuting on the full cycle and get soldered right back into your brand new phone

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#170

Post by icebraining »

noam87 wrote: post #99

I've been thinking recently that there is exists a completely unxplored market in tech. Local shops based around FOSS / open hardware where designers, hardware and software people work together to build custom projects for their clients. I would call this person a "technology artisan", because the closest analogue I can think of is a tailor or a carpinter. So, for example, a family would go to their local technology…

Custom software development is not an unexplored market. There are literally thousands of companies, many of them small & local, offering those services. It's just that we do so to other businesses, since it's way too expensive to develop custom stuff for single individuals.

I've built a coin-operated electric candle stand[1] for a local theater group. I'm just an amateur at electronic circuits, and I'm sure a professional would have spent less time on it, but even at half my hourly price, I would have blown half their production budget.

You could say some builders would be willing to take a pay cut to work within your community, but frankly, doing one-off toys to upper-middle-class people is not my idea of community service. I'd rather have a well paying job writing B2B software and then work for free for people in actual need.

[1] a copy (with extra features) of something commonly found in catholic churches around here: https://www.nextnature.net/app/uploads/2010/05/led_candles.j...

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