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A “right to repair” movement tools up

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Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#61
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a point, but if the law catches up with this idea, then I don't think this should be a problem. I.e., stronger rights for people who use services.

Goods and services are always (and will always be) separate for those at the top of the economic food chain. Why should it be different for those who are less privileged? Looks like a likely avenue for exploiting or at least taking control/power/freedom from other people. Don’t count on service quality laws to make up the disparity caused by losing the right to full ownership of one’s property.

> Goods and services are always (and will always be) separate for those at the top of the economic food chain. Why should it be different for those who are less privileged? Looks like a likely avenue for exploiting or at least taking control/power/freedom from other people.

Can you come up with a concrete scenario?

> Don’t count on service quality laws to make up the disparity caused by losing the right to full ownership of one’s property.

Yeah, but now we're fighting for the "right to repair". And we need to fight for the "right of a clean environment". And a "right of no planned obsolescence". Seems much more complicated to me than just getting the incentives right in the first place.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#62
post #42

Why don't we just pay for services instead of buying products? This pushes the problem of maintenance to the service provider, thus making it more efficient and thus cheaper and more environment-friendly. Also, it completely eliminates the problem of planned obsolescence. There are some downsides, such as that usage of the service outside the contract becomes impossible, so contracts should be sufficiently broad (and…

I don't know why you are being downvoted for asking a question, but I think it's incredibly important to educate people on the dangers of your proposal, i.e. to answer it.

A short answer is "everything Stallman has ever warned us about (most of which has already come to pass)."

A longer answer contains many, many reasons, so I'll just throw out some paragraphs.

Ownership is more than psychological, it's about your right and ability to do what you want with your stuff. It's also about whether your stuff is designed to help you or to work against you. "Do what you want" includes modifications, repair, and any usage that you might want even if not officially sanctioned by the company. If you don't own your stuff, you can't control whether it's tracking you and sending back data about you. You can't control whether one day the company goes out of business, or gets bought by a new owner, or decides for liability reasons or whatever that they should remotely disable or recall the product (maybe at the moment you need it most).

There's also a reason that "rents" are a hugely important concept in economics. In general, the renter is open to exploitation by the rentee who continually makes money not by creating additional new welfare/value but due to a historical circumstance, i.e. being the one who originally owned the thing being rented.

More issues: paying for services actually accentuates the problem of planned obsolescence, because it gives the service-provider the ability to terminate or alter terms of the deal at intervals (or immediately via software update) thus virtually forcing an upgrade.

When products are built to actually last, buying is perfectly environmentally-friendly. If you look at a mid-20th-century family's home, almost everything in it was built to last for decades -- furniture, appliances, vehicles, even clothing (with appropriate repairs). That was a result of the purchasing equilibrium. Many people have had to move toward the renting equilibrium where they don't expect to own things permanently, and the stuff they own is crap.

I'll stop there, but reiterate that the number 1 issue is ownership and control. I suggest you try the thought experiment of placing goods on a scale from "most ownership" (purchased for long-term reasons, customizable, repairable) to "least ownership" (comes with terms and conditions, may be updated or changed by the company at any time), and evaluate each good by how long it lasts, environmental-friendliness, how much it respects the rights of the user versus the wishes of the producer, and how much it is subject to planned obsolescence. (Starter: the iPhone is on the far end in all categories.)

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#63
post #28
post #18

Planned obsolescence is why I will never invest more than 100 euros into a phone. I will always wait to buy low-priced, fast enough for me hardware. I still remember how my macbook pro started to be slow and unusable after OSX updates. My real wish is that one day, computer or smartphone hardware might last at least 5 or even 10 years. I know software is evolving quickly, but there comes a point where I don't think y…

In my recent experience, my Mac has got faster after each macOS update. They seem to be putting a lot of effort into performance. I'm just not seening the evidence of this "planned obsolescence". I would put it on the level of a conspiracy theory. Little hard evidence in favour, but anecdoes accepted as fact by those inclined to believe them. As a counter-anecdote, as it happens I'm typing this on my 2011 Mac mini, m…

It is a documented problem [1]. That does not mean that every company does it though.

[1] http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/g202/planned-obso...

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#64

You can thank Louis Rossmann, in part, for this one. His livelihood does depend on it (although he has acknowledged that, as electronics get more disposable, he will inevitably end up having to shift into something like software or hardware design), but he has made a really admirable effort of actually going boots-on-the-ground and lobbying at political hearings.

He's freaking awesome. Have you seen the videos he has on the kinds of arguments Apple makes to prevent the right-to-repair become a thing? They're quite eye-opening and really gets to the heart of how ridiculous the whole situation is.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#65
"In the future, repairability is likely to become even more of an issue, says Kyle Wiens, iFixit's chief executive. Not only do firms want customers to use authorised dealers, but a growing number of products are also no longer stand-alone devices, but rather delivery vehicles for services that generate additional revenues."

Gee, I wonder who started that trend?

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#66
post #42

Why don't we just pay for services instead of buying products? This pushes the problem of maintenance to the service provider, thus making it more efficient and thus cheaper and more environment-friendly. Also, it completely eliminates the problem of planned obsolescence. There are some downsides, such as that usage of the service outside the contract becomes impossible, so contracts should be sufficiently broad (and…

Because then there would be no products. And no, it would not eliminate so-called "planned obsolescence" (which isn't a real issue with quality products like Apple's anyway); it would just shift any such motives and actions to a different income stream and a different company.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#67
post #43
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that a regulation along the lines of "if you sell it, you must give the customer the ability to dispose of it" would be nice. And, yes, I do think that means Amazon would have to have some sort of bricks-and-mortar operation: at minimum there must be a shop owned by someone , which Amazon has a deal with, that you'd be able to drop your discarded Amajunk off at. Also, I also think we should have a ca…

Amazon wouldn't need a brick-and-mortar operation. Just log into your account and print out a postpaid shipping label. They keep your purchase history; so, you could look up the order and click a link next to the item. There are far more Post Offices than any shops they could make a deal with.

Wait, does Amazon ship the junk back to China too and then China disassembles it and ships the elements back to their respective holes in the ground?

It seems like a better idea would be to just have Amazon give you a voucher for the recycling fees in your local community.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#68
post #62
post #42

Why don't we just pay for services instead of buying products? This pushes the problem of maintenance to the service provider, thus making it more efficient and thus cheaper and more environment-friendly. Also, it completely eliminates the problem of planned obsolescence. There are some downsides, such as that usage of the service outside the contract becomes impossible, so contracts should be sufficiently broad (and…

I don't know why you are being downvoted for asking a question, but I think it's incredibly important to educate people on the dangers of your proposal, i.e. to answer it. A short answer is "everything Stallman has ever warned us about (most of which has already come to pass)." A longer answer contains many, many reasons, so I'll just throw out some paragraphs. Ownership is more than psychological, it's about your ri…

So you don't think that we can capture all of what you said in laws that protect the consumer?

Also, how is using a service different than paying someone to do a job for you. E.g. paying someone to do your laundry instead of buying a washing machine. The person you hire can choose any means of doing your laundry, including putting a washing machine in your home.

If that's causing problems with exploitation, isn't that a fundamental flaw in our economy, rather than with the idea of preferring services over products?

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#69
post #29

Does anyone know what the best, most-serviceable laptop is in 2017? Looking for something with decent hardware and Linux support. It seems like the trend is toward soldered-on parts.

Thinkpads still seem to be the best. The documentation is still amazingly thorough, and there is a wide range of models from ultraportable (parts soldered on) to "portable workstations" (big thick chassis).

They are coming out with an "anniversary edition" Thinkpad that looks like it's a refresh of a T400 series chassis. It seems promising.

Re: A “right to repair” movement tools up

#70
post #6

I hope at some point we'll start including recycling/disassembly and replacement externalities into price somehow. I don't know how you would do that in a fair way, but it is frustrating that there aren't a ton of corrective market forces to encourage manufacturers to make highly reusable, repairable, recyclable devices. All of this electronics churn is environmentally terrible, and it's frustrating that, as with car…

That already happens, but on a different scale. When Apple has to repair or replace an iPhone, they're giving you a remanufactured iPhone using reused internal parts like screws or shielding. This is factored into the costs of an iPhone which keeps them 'lower' / profit margins higher.

> they're giving you a remanufactured iPhone using reused internal parts like screws or shielding

And, unless something changed recently, batteries. My iPhone 5 had a faulty charging socket, which got worse. A month after unboxing, it would no longer charge at all, so I handed it in for repair. Got back a unit with half the battery life and a faulty charging socket.

I gave it to a good GSoC student across the world after a second unsuccessful trip to service

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