Earlier quoted context omitted.
If that was the point of the article, I think it was spectacularly ineffective at communicating it. Your points here (and above) are a far better and more succinct presentation of the argument than the article itself was.
Thank you. But, from the article: “That’s the point,” I said, now in tears, “I don’t want to have to ask.” The word considerate means to consider how your actions or inactions will impact other people. The vast majority of the ongoing internet discussion of so called emotional labor hinges on the detail that the societal expectation is that women are required to do this. Men are not. And when a man's failure to think…
How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality
371–380 of 449 posts
Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality
#372Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why isn't the solution for the man to compromise on his expectations? The question goes both ways. If their mutual goal is living together, that is.
Compromise does indeed go both ways. I'm not seeing that here though. At no point does the woman say "well, I guess we just don't do that thing in our house." (Obviously when children come into the equation, the man's not knowing the pediatrician's phone number is true learned helplessness and laziness, rather than a difference in standards, because presumably both parties enjoy having a healthy child). I agree that…
Dirty clothes on the floor? What is this, your college dorm!? It is an unlikely option that the man/husband could also raise his standards.
Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality
#373Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality
#374>That’s the point,” I said, now in tears, “I don’t want to have to ask.” >Walking that fine line to keep the peace and not upset your partner is something women are taught to accept as their duty from an early age. >My husband is a good man, and a good feminist ally. >However, it’s not as easy as telling him that. My husband, despite his good nature and admirable intentions, still responds to criticism in a very patr…
90% of the time? Yeah, dump it.
10% of the time? Things are still bad, jettison it.
0.001% of the time? Who knows.
This also precludes the inevitable terrible boss, infertility issues and the hormones that come from 'fixing' them, MiLs, etc. Things in a marriage are also the things that happen outside of it.
So yeah, I'd say most marriages are 99% in line with 1-5, the trick is the 'error' rate.
Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you might be missing the point. The gift that she wanted was the house cleaning service. She had already been planning/considering hiring someone anyway. The gift was that she would not have to do the work to find, vet, make the calls, research, arrange payment, schedule, etc. for this task. The gift was supposed to be him taking over that work. > The gift, for me, was not so much in the cleaning itself but t…
If this is what the author wanted, which I 100% agree with you it is, why didn't she just say that? Admittedly, I often find myself in the clueless husband role, but my wife has been making a huge effort to directly say what she wants. The result is that both of us are much happier. If the author of this article wanted her husband to do the legwork of finding a housekeeper she should have asked for exactly that.
Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality
#376This is a topic where the more I learned about it the more I opened my eyes to it and saw it happening on my own life. I'm very easy going and there isn't much I get too worked up about. My wife, on the other hand, is a meticulous planner. I could see her getting stressed out making decisions for a vacation. I realized that by not caring, I wasn't helping and offloading the burden to her. Now I truly didn't care if w…
I've tried that and it usually goes like this... :) Her: Where are we going to eat? Me: Restuarant A. Her: But restaurant B has X. Me: Sounds good. Let's go to B. Her: But you wanted to go to A. I think the trick may be deciding before it becomes a decision on her radar in the first place.
The correct response to "But restaurant B has X" is "Perhaps, but I'm in the mood for A today." After all, she asked you in the first place. Don't be a pushover.
Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality
#377Earlier quoted context omitted.
You have wholly failed to grasp the concept of sexism. "Women are bad at tech" is a sexist statement, while "men are bad at emotional labor" is not. This is no more a double standard than saying 0/1 is 0, while 1/0 is undefined. The asymmetry exists a priori, and so the balance of those statements is descriptive of sexism, not causal.
Nonsense. Associating behaviour with sex, is sexism, pure and simple . The fact that he is a man has nothing to do with the fact that he doesn't have the same agency - nor the 'right' to complain about it - as his wife does. Making that association a part of the discussion is sexism.
Let's look at this another way. Some how, we have managed to collectively convince ourselves that "sexism" is bad without accurately identifying what sexism is. This causes an interesting cognitive dissonance wherein the beneficiaries of sexism, who categorically do not think of themselves as bad people, must find a way to justify how they are not sexist. One particularly facile way to do so is to simply redefine the term "sexism" to something vacuous that implies no particular weight to the underlying distribution, ergo no individual bears any particular responsibility for the ongoing structural inequity.
Unfortunately, while this neatly resolves the mental tension, it reinforces the cycle of "sexism is bad, but we don't actually know what sexism is -> we redefine the term to have no descriptive or predictive power".
Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality
#378I love working 10+ hours a day to pay for 100% of me and my fiancé's expenses, coming home, cooking dinner, and cleaning up everything while she studies for med school; going to bed early so I can do some shopping before work; and then being told I'm a useless man by some nobody with a shitty marriage on a website that's supposed to be about technology.
Nobody is calling you useless. Clearly, you've done your share (quite possibly, more than your share) of emotional labor / domestic work in your relationship. But surely you know that you are defying norms here? Statistically speaking, those burdens do fall on women far more often than on men: http://blogs.reuters.com/equals/2014/03/12/more-work-and-les... It's not the greatest article in the world, but the main mess…
This type of conversation needs to occur more. The 'Not All Men' rebuttal and counter-rebuttal offers absolutely no benefit to anyone but more often than not, on any medium I would have seen that posted here instead of your written piece.
I understand your perspective seattle_spring, truthfully I find myself in your place more often than not. But I find my self at ends with my own personal beliefs and alliances. For the purpose of discussing this topic at greater length I'll be focusing on why this conversation needs to occur in a similar thought process shown here.
I find your argument seattle_spring, to be similar in tone to the Not All Men rebuttal. Though your reasons, experiences and feelings for how you perceive this piece on Emotional Labour is not vilified, you have your reasons for feeling how you do. I also empathise the personal struggles you're going through (I've seen first hand the struggles of supporting those in the medical field). But I believe your argument is misplaced and steph above me articulates this well. Let me unpack this.
When the Not All Men brigade reared their heads on Reddit in response to the women only screenings of Wonder Woman (WW), there was a lack of conversation on both sides of the fence from both the brigade and the Feminist allies of the WW screenings.
I personally found the WW screenings distasteful and if I was asked my opinion on it, I'd discuss this. But I was neither inflamed nor agitated by the screenings. There's other topics that deserve our attention (as a feminist allied man) that deserved more of my energy than these female only viewings of WW.
What am I, as a men, really being deprived of by these WW screenings at a tangible level? It really has no direct consequence to me. Though from a perspective or trying to find and build unity between sexes I thought it was counter productive. Anyway, I digress.
However. The same men who were the most public around these discussions around why he was _so_ offended and vilified by these women only screenings. Where was their horror, disapproval, loud and defensive counter argument when the rights of his sisters, daughters or wives rights to sexual reproductive health, taken away from them by a group of older white men less than 6 months prior? Where was _their_ rage and hostility then? Why were they quiet?
Therein lies the meat of the conversation.
It's not _just_ that these Not All Men are defensive about protecting their image about what they perceive to be a gross generalisation. It's that the Not All Men brigade are ignorant and blind to their hypocritical contradiction, where they care _more_ about their offense to these WW screenings and it's triviality, and yet are so very quiet while America's women's sexual rights were taken from them.
I feel sudo_steph, you did well to both show empathy to seattle_spring and his own battles, whilst still offering him the perspective that as a man, we can still be disadvantaged by the same cultural and societal forces that disadvantage most women. So again, thank you.
Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality
#379Earlier quoted context omitted.
Compromise does indeed go both ways. I'm not seeing that here though. At no point does the woman say "well, I guess we just don't do that thing in our house." (Obviously when children come into the equation, the man's not knowing the pediatrician's phone number is true learned helplessness and laziness, rather than a difference in standards, because presumably both parties enjoy having a healthy child). I agree that…
Its not like she's talking about polishing silver or some martha-stewart level domesticity. The standards of living the author describes are pretty basic. Dirty clothes on the floor? What is this, your college dorm!? It is an unlikely option that the man/husband could also raise his standards.
Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality
#380I'm not sure I buy this. In my experience at least, it all comes down to standards — it sounds like this woman has higher standards for what constitutes a "running household", and gets frustrated when her husband doesn't share those standards. It sounds like he would be content with boxes on the floor, dirty bathrooms, etc. When she asks him to raise the house to her standard, she is asking him to adopt her perspecti…
I was a homemaker for a couple of decades. So, I spent a great deal more time physically at home than my husband and the house was where most of my work occurred. When my husband left his dirty clothes on the floor, I could either live with the clutter and step over it or pick up after him. Either choice was still an imposition on me that lowered my quality of life. Furthermore, since doing laundry was one of my resp…
I could either live with the clutter and step over it or pick up after him
But those aren't your only choices.If you decided to park your car in the middle of the street, the choices of those around you aren't limited to either put up with it or to clean up after you. Instead, you car gets towed.
The key difference between these situations is that one has agreed upon expectations and consequences. People only resort to nagging when they find themselves in a situation where there are no agreed upon expectations and consequences. Further, consequences are extremely effective. You only need to be towed once before you learn to be more careful about where you park.
If you agreed upon an expectation/consequence of "clothes left on the floor for more than 2 days will be thrown away", you wouldn't be putting up with clutter for very long.
This also helps with directing negative emotions. When someone is nagged, the negative emotion is usually directed at the nagger. But if he broke the rules and had his clothes thrown away, he'd be angry with himself.