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How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

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Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#141

Post by trgn »

mmjaa wrote: post #48

This is a highly charged, and - frankly sexist - article about how people have expectations that are unfulfilled because they simply don't communicate with each other . There isn't a single example of this "emotional labor" in the article, where a consideration is given to "the man" about how much labor it takes, emotionally, to keep up with someone who has high expectations for their environment, but does not commun…

Airing her grievances online is immature and isn't going to help their situation, there's a good chance her husband is going to get more defensive about it.

That tactical mistake notwithstanding, she's on the whole quite correct though.

She says:

> When my husband brushes out tangles before bedtime, he needs his efforts noticed and congratulated

That's such a common attitude. He needs to just do the damn work already without being such a baby about it.

Her complaint is that he needs to "see" work. Don't leave the gift wrap out in the middle of the room, but put it back. Hear a squeaky door hinge, just fix it. That kind of thing. The fact that he doesn't, and the fact that he needs to be told time and again, can of course be a source of stress. If he doesn't recognize that truly, then he's being obtuse. Most likely though, it all happens more in a grey zone. Not that he doesn't realize leaving the gift wrap out is an inconvenience, but that he doesn't care enough to put it back. Not necessarily because of malice, but this soup of lazyness, unattentiveness, and perhaps, every once in a while, a smidgen of malice, you know, that little urge to needle other people sometime, especially nagging ones.

It really isn't much about failure of communication. From the article, they talked about it plenty. It's in a national publication now. He knows she wants him to be proactive, instead of wait-and-see. It's about a mismatch between habits and expectations. There are many ways this can resolve. Either she learns to live with it. Or he changes. Either of those could both be happy solutions to their issue, with both parties finding contentment. But his half-assed approach of 'well, just ask me, I'm happy to do it", and then gloat or moan about it afterwards, is obviously not doing it.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#142

Post by arkona »

> It was obvious that the box was in the way, that it needed to be put back. It would have been easy for him to just reach up and put it away, but instead he had stepped around it, willfully ignoring it for two days. It was up to me to tell him that he should put away something he got out in the first place.

> “That’s the point,” I said, now in tears, “I don’t want to have to ask.”

This kind of irrational thinking ended a relationship for me.

> why don't you care about me? Why aren't you able to anticipate exactly how I want you to behave at every moment?

> because I'm not in your head, you damn stupid b

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#143

Post by saint_fiasco »

rootlocus wrote: post #129
saint_fiasco wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they don't "say what they really think" because it's hard work. I hate gifts and would rather receive cash for a present, but if I were the sort of person who wanted a specific gift I would find it annoying to have to justify it, explain what the gift really means to me on a deep level, and so on. That sort of "emotional labor" might in fact be the reason I dislike gifts, now that I think about it.

> but if I were the sort of person who wanted a specific gift I would find it annoying to have to justify it, explain what the gift really means to me on a deep level, and so on That's fine if you don't give a shit whether or not you receive the expected gift. But throwing a tantrum after the fact and writing an entire blog post about it is unreasonable. She (they) clearly has deeper problems than not receiving what…

Right. I have enough self-awareness that I don't bother asking for specific gifts. It all adds up to compromise, knowing your quirks and limitations and not trying too hard to make reality conform to your quirks.

However, I think it is not fair to criticize the author for trying to do the right thing. She was wrong at the time to expect her husband to understand without communicating, but then she had a serious talk with him, and now she literally wrote an essay explaining her thoughts.

It's like when a boy cleans his room, praising him is the right thing to do, even if you feel a little sexist doing it (because you did not praise his sister for the same thing). You have to tailor the praise and criticism to the individual. Don't be harsh at the kid for not cleaning as well and as often as his sister, and don't be harsh at the author for not communicating early enough.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#144

Post by Mz »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #7

I'm not sure I buy this. In my experience at least, it all comes down to standards — it sounds like this woman has higher standards for what constitutes a "running household", and gets frustrated when her husband doesn't share those standards. It sounds like he would be content with boxes on the floor, dirty bathrooms, etc. When she asks him to raise the house to her standard, she is asking him to adopt her perspecti…

I was a homemaker for a couple of decades. So, I spent a great deal more time physically at home than my husband and the house was where most of my work occurred. When my husband left his dirty clothes on the floor, I could either live with the clutter and step over it or pick up after him. Either choice was still an imposition on me that lowered my quality of life.

Furthermore, since doing laundry was one of my responsibilities, him not putting his clothes in the hamper just made my job harder. And, no, it wasn't really acceptable to just not wash his clothes because they weren't in the hamper. We were financially dependent on his job. He had to be presentable. Plus, leaving dirty clothes laying around is a hygiene issue and I have health problems.

It would be a little bit like if I went to his office and dumped my laundry on his desk and he would either have to deal with that or work around it -- all day, every single day. We were married about 16 years before he grasped that and stopped leaving his dirty clothes on the floor.

When you are in a partnership, the actions of your partner are going to impact you. If they aren't considerate, they will impact you negatively. That is simply reality. Acting like it is not is crazy talk.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#145

Post by mmjaa »

acc1558 wrote: post #113
mmjaa wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>almost always a male problem That is sexist.

You have wholly failed to grasp the concept of sexism. "Women are bad at tech" is a sexist statement, while "men are bad at emotional labor" is not. This is no more a double standard than saying 0/1 is 0, while 1/0 is undefined. The asymmetry exists a priori, and so the balance of those statements is descriptive of sexism, not causal.

Nonsense. Associating behaviour with sex, is sexism, pure and simple.

The fact that he is a man has nothing to do with the fact that he doesn't have the same agency - nor the 'right' to complain about it - as his wife does. Making that association a part of the discussion is sexism.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#146

Post by mercutio2 »

nxsynonym wrote: post #97
EarthIsHome wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and the parent comment have completely missed her point. > Not to mention the 'emotional labor' of working full time to keep a family afloat. She mentions this exact same defense that many men say. You also don't know their income breakdown; she has a job, she's freelanced, while also making household and familial decisions.

She doesn't have a point other than "I want more help around the house and my husband won't listen". That's not a failing of anything other than the husband's ability to listen and her ability to be upfront with her expectations. Income breakdown is irrelevant.

This particular author’s arguments are irritating, self-centered, and over-generalized, so I’m not really defending the piece.

But the author is quite explicit that her husband does any task asked; what she’s asking for is that he take more initiative and not require praise when he does so.

I agree with many other commenters that coming to consensus on “everyone in the family is expected to spend 2 minutes every evening putting away things they’ve taken out without requiring nagging or praise” is a very low bar and should not be a hard communication problem to solve in a healthy relationship.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#147

Post by RUG3Y »

psyc wrote: post #130

I dislike this term, and I'm dismayed by its recent leakage into the mainstream. I have yet to see an explanation for what it means, that is distinguishable from "being a person." The people who use the term usually seem exceptionally entitled and self-centered. The assumption that women do more of whatever it's supposed to entail is sexist, and I see little evidence for it. It seems like an academic-sounding way to…

It's a fancy way of making yourself appear to be a victim, conveniently with zero external evidence to support that claim.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#148

Post by rootlocus »

musha68k wrote: post #6

I found this comic on the topic also insightful: “You should’ve asked” https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

Two things I don't understand.

First, are the women depicted in this comic stay at home moms? If so then yes, I would expect them to take care of the house. Regardless of gender. If they both have jobs, then the workload should be shared. It's not about gender. It's about distributing the work. If he goes to work 8 hours a day, she can work 8 hours a day. Staying at home and not doing anything is nothing short of disrespectful.

Second, the "mental load" of having to remember all those things isn't a herculean task. A calendar, a TODO list, a shopping list on the fridge are simple solutions which greatly reduce the load.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#149

Post by RUG3Y »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #140
RUG3Y wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are the kinds of issues you're supposed to discuss before you marry someone. She has higher standards, and she ends up doing all kinds of (unnecessary in her husband's mind) work to keep those standards, which are hers alone.

Discussion is one thing, but I think the real test is cohabitation. There are lots of things you think you can deal with in theory, but when faced with it every day, you are forced to either 1) come to a compromise, 2) let it go, or 3) quietly seethe about it for the rest of your life. Fortunately, my wife is a clinical psychologist, so #3 was off the table in our house.

However it's done, it's my opinion that a couple should come to an understanding about practical and mundane details of their life situation before making serious commitments.

It sounds like you've got a good thing going...1 and 2 I can deal with, the quiet seething is a no-go.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#150

Post by gyardley »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #107
gyardley wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience communication happens again and again and again over a period of years until the woman gives up in exasperation and just seethes silently. It's hard to get someone to engage in emotional labor (or as I like to call it, 'giving a fuck') when they simply don't give a fuck, no matter how much you communicate. Since not caring enough to do the basic gruntwork associated with a decent relationship is almo…

I think you're arbitrarily privileging "giving a fuck" over "not giving a fuck". Try this: Alice wants Task X to be done. Bob does not care whether Task X is done. Let us stipulate that, if Task X is not done, nobody will be materially, objectively harmed. Alice says: because I want Task X, you will do Task X. Alice does not ask Bob's opinion on Task X, but rather assumes that Task X is inherently necessary, and ther…

It’s usually because not doing the task has very real negative consequences and due to the sexist nature of modern society the consequences fall most heavily on Alice, not on Bob. Don’t buy the nephews birthday cards? The relatives think badly of Alice, not Bob. Take your son out in mismatched or slightly too small clothes? People pass judgement on Alice, not Bob.

When Bob doesn’t think something is necessary and Alice does, Bob needs to step back and think about why she does, because there’s generally a good reason. Going immediately to game theory isn’t helpful when you’ve got imperfect information due to your own lack of introspection.

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