Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

harpersbazaar.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 449 posts

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#251

Post by Mz »

Spivak wrote: post #243
CaptSpify wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about "talking to the proletarians". It's about the emotional work involved with talking to a bunch of people, organizing those discussions, comparing the results, etc. As a generally introverted person, just thinking about discussing the details with 3 or more people makes me feel exhausted. And that doesn't even count the planning, review, time off of work, etc.

Nomenclature question, why are we calling the work involved securing a vendor emotional labor? In any office this would just be called labor.

Basically, the term emotional labor gets used a lot to mean "women's work" and especially to refer to the largely invisible parts of what women are expected to do.

I don't like that usage, but I usually don't bother to nitpick it. I do understand why this is kind of a hot topic and why the term emotional labor gets applied to it.

I don't have a better solution. It seems like there simply isn't a good way to talk about these issues.

(FWIW: I'm a woman.)

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#252

Post by dredmorbius »

jerkstate wrote: post #53

I come here for the interesting tech news, not gender politics.

Well-considered, well-written, thoughtful, and constructive gender politics can be exceptionally useful. It concerns the viewpoints and interactions of much of the human race, generally with the rest.

This piece, however, is none of those.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#253

Post by brookside »

gkya wrote: post #232
brookside wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not in love with the phrase "emotional labor" but I would suspect if you reflect more deeply you will see the scenarios in this article playing out in your own and others' relationships. It's not really about standards, more the fact that it's not fair to women when the default assumption is they are in mental charge of household and child-rearing duties - certainly when both partners are working. I'll share a co…

That comic is really funny, in a bad sense. She should've asked. For one, as someone who enjoys cooking, I really want to be alone in the kitchen. Also, if a person is not considerate enough to help, that won't change. If that guy is not already helping her out in the kitchen, probably he's that type of guy. As I said in another comment, if you want to live with someone who'll automatically help you with the kitchen,…

I think about some things I said in did in relationships in my 20s and cringe.

I hope I have gotten massively more in-tune with others' emotions and desires, having read more, witnessed modeling aside from my parents, and gone through a more varied and extensive set of personal and interpersonal experiences to compare with.

While I have observed most people's personalities being fairly static, I do think it's possible to morph into an empath. Quickly, even, if tragedy or mental health issues strike.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#254

Post by AnimalMuppet »

Mz wrote: post #251
Spivak wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nomenclature question, why are we calling the work involved securing a vendor emotional labor? In any office this would just be called labor.

Basically, the term emotional labor gets used a lot to mean "women's work" and especially to refer to the largely invisible parts of what women are expected to do. I don't like that usage, but I usually don't bother to nitpick it. I do understand why this is kind of a hot topic and why the term emotional labor gets applied to it. I don't have a better solution. It seems like there simply isn't a good way to talk abou…

To steal words from your post, maybe invisible labor? Does that express what you're trying to say?

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#255

Post by CaptSpify »

Spivak wrote: post #243
CaptSpify wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about "talking to the proletarians". It's about the emotional work involved with talking to a bunch of people, organizing those discussions, comparing the results, etc. As a generally introverted person, just thinking about discussing the details with 3 or more people makes me feel exhausted. And that doesn't even count the planning, review, time off of work, etc.

Nomenclature question, why are we calling the work involved securing a vendor emotional labor? In any office this would just be called labor.

I don't know, this is the first time I've really ever heard this term. If I had heard the term outside of this context, I would imagine it to mean "interactive/inter-communicative/social" work, instead of physical work, but it feels like there's some kind of historical/feminist context here that I'm not aware of.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#256

Post by BearGoesChirp »

nkrisc wrote: post #226
dominotw wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if we went to restaurant A or restaurant B, so she always had to make the decision. If this is considered some sort of labor then we are truly in golden age of human civilization. Most people everywhere in the world would die to do this sort of labor. Also why not do a coin flip , outsource the labor to a coin.

It is merely a single example. There are far more meaningful examples that I won't share simply because they're much more private issues. Nitpick the example, if you like, it doesn't change my point. Besides, the issue isn't picking what restaurant we go to, it's always being the one who has to decide, to weigh the options. And not just restaurants, but what time should we go? When do we leave? Should we drive? Take…

There is no need to plan this out.

Look at it like a garden. If someone decides they want a nice looking garden or lawn, then they work on it. But another person can be perfectly fine with some grass that gets cut on a Saturday when it looks too long.

If my partner wants a garden and works on it, they aren't removing any work from me since I don't want a garden. In the same way, all these decisions don't have to be planned out. Using emotional labor to plan it out is their choice, much like working on a garden.

That's what I don't get about the concept of emotional labor. Most of it involves things that I don't care about and which my life is perfectly fine without any care being given to.

When ever I go out to eat lunch, I often don't plan it all when I start. I walk out the door of my office and if it looks nice I walk, if it isn't nice I drive. Snap decision with no planning. Where I end up? I just go until I find someplace I find acceptable and stop. Why is there any need for emotional labor? Emotional labor in this case isn't to achieve a necessity.

I also haven't seen people address how single people handle it. They have to deal with all of their own emotional labor and have no benefits from economics of scale (if that even applies to emotional labor).

To sum it up, consider the years I lived as a single man. Either I handled all my emotional labor and understand it just fine, or it didn't need to be handled in which case all this work is a nicety that shouldn't be treated as a necessity.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#257

Post by Mz »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #254
Mz wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, the term emotional labor gets used a lot to mean "women's work" and especially to refer to the largely invisible parts of what women are expected to do. I don't like that usage, but I usually don't bother to nitpick it. I do understand why this is kind of a hot topic and why the term emotional labor gets applied to it. I don't have a better solution. It seems like there simply isn't a good way to talk abou…

To steal words from your post, maybe invisible labor ? Does that express what you're trying to say?

I didn't write the piece.

Another issue writers run into is that if you aren't using any of the hot catch phrases, no one will read your piece. I wrestle with this fact a lot. I blog at times about such issues. I try to be evenhanded and sympathetic to both sides. I really struggle with titling stuff and my writing gets damn little traffic.

My refusal to use the standard catch phrases, because of their frequently toxic framing, is a barrier to being heard at all. And I sometimes wonder which is worse: Putting out a fucked up message in hopes of some partial solution emerging or simply howling into the void and going entirely unheard.

Making any progress is incredibly challenging.

This piece was published in a major publication. If it didn't use a popular catch phrase, they probably would not have published it at all. Those popular catch phrases are important hooks for titling things and for communicating with the public.

On my own personal blogs, I have the luxury of refusing to use phrases I don't like. You generally don't have that luxury when trying to get published by an organization that needs to hit certain traffic targets to survive and keep their doors open.

The part of this that genuinely is an issue of emotional labor is her desire for her husband to actually be considerate. That is the crux of the issue here.

The article perhaps is not as clear as it could be about that fact.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#259

Post by BearGoesChirp »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #43

>That’s the point,” I said, now in tears, “I don’t want to have to ask.” >Walking that fine line to keep the peace and not upset your partner is something women are taught to accept as their duty from an early age. >My husband is a good man, and a good feminist ally. >However, it’s not as easy as telling him that. My husband, despite his good nature and admirable intentions, still responds to criticism in a very patr…

>My husband is a good man, and a good feminist ally.

I'm not sure I needed to read anymore than that. It is a sexist view, by someone who I would suspect would argue they aren't sexist. Based purely on my personal experiences, I've found people who hold such a view tend to have a very fundamental incompatibility in world view from myself.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#260

Post by manmal »

I think the correct term (instead of emotional labor) would be „ownership“. It’s the very thing my mother has complained of (well, the lack of it actually) about my father. He didn’t care about most things because he gets easily stressed about owning or being responsible for tasks, so he only initiates and rallies for tasks that he likes doing. Luckily they divorced some years ago.

Alas, I have adapted some of my father‘s behavior, but as I‘m truly growing up, it’s getting better. Ownership is empowering, and it must not be connected with guilt. For me (and probably my father), ownership always led to perfectionism and guilt when something did not work out; but screw guilt, and nobody‘s perfect. BTW in German, the terms ownership and responsibility are somewhat conflated into „Verantwortung“, which is easily interpreted as being held accountable.

I‘m sure there are a lot of reasons that can lead to passivity or the lack of ownership in a relationship. IMO it‘s one of the most toxic things that can exist. It can ruin precious years of your life, and turn family life into hell. Take ownership if you don’t already.

Post reply on HN