Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

harpersbazaar.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 449 posts

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#241

Post by mercer »

TFortunato wrote: post #104
greedo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why must she? Because she's the one who has issues with it. A relationship needs communication, since mind-reading doesn't work yet. I'll try to avoid using he/she since the article itself is very sexist, as is your post. Partner's have different expectations, and one partner may not see an issue until it's brought to their attention. It has nothing to do with gender, or emotional labor or any other drivel. It has to…

You caught me off-guard a bit saying my post is sexist. To be clear I am NOT saying that this is how things are in all relationships, or how things should be. I'm very much in the camp of partners needing to be full partners, and for open and health communication. I'm also not blind to the fact that there are still some deeply ingrained stereotypes, however subtle, about gender roles in our society, and I'm trying, p…

I can definitely confirm that despite my many readings of articles and studyings of psychology, this article describes some of the most common issues I've run into in romantic relationships with women on a day to day level, but in some cases relationship-ending. I don't think the point of the article is, or the point of our discussions should be whether this is the way things just are, or should be. Rather, it's about acknowledging that this is very often the case, whether by nature or nurture or whatever. Just that 'common ground' might be essential to developing ways to improve things.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#242

Post by Mz »

gkya wrote: post #217
Mz wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a homemaker for a couple of decades. So, I spent a great deal more time physically at home than my husband and the house was where most of my work occurred. When my husband left his dirty clothes on the floor, I could either live with the clutter and step over it or pick up after him. Either choice was still an imposition on me that lowered my quality of life. Furthermore, since doing laundry was one of my resp…

This whole topic mostly boils down to partner choice. If a person is messy, that person is messy. If you are tidy, and not willing to compromise, a messy person is not a good partner for you. It's going to be a pain point, he won't change, you won't change, people don't change. A relationship is a game of compromises. I don't know where are you from, but where I'm from there's a prevalent culture where people think t…

My ex was not messy. He did things like meticulously organize his book collection and kept his own possessions in pristine condition. He was just a sexist pig.

He did not think he was a sexist pig. He was very idealistic and talked about the importance of women's rights. It wasn't apparent I was marrying a troglodyte until well after we married and our first child was on the way. On some level, he wanted a modern two career couple lifestyle. But, when push came to shove, he expected me to pick up after him, cook for him, etc. Trying to get him to see where his words and his actions parted ways was very challenging.

A lot of people are like that about various things. This is part of why psychology distinguishes the conscious from the subconscious.

People never have perfect information about their partner. There is a lot dating does not reveal.

(My ex was not a bad guy. I don't hate him and these issues are wholly unrelated to why we divorced.)

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#243

Post by Spivak »

CaptSpify wrote: post #236
hasbroslasher wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My response, then, is "Oh poor you! You have to call the proletarian house cleaners, rub shoulders with the 'help'! How difficult it must be." Leftist cynicism aside: I'm talking more about the "socks on the floor, chair in the way, keeping the house in order mentally" side of things

It's not about "talking to the proletarians". It's about the emotional work involved with talking to a bunch of people, organizing those discussions, comparing the results, etc. As a generally introverted person, just thinking about discussing the details with 3 or more people makes me feel exhausted. And that doesn't even count the planning, review, time off of work, etc.

Nomenclature question, why are we calling the work involved securing a vendor emotional labor? In any office this would just be called labor.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#244

Post by Jill_the_Pill »

lmm wrote: post #82
DanHulton wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean - I'm always looking for ways to please my partner, and to a lesser degree, my friends, family and co-workers. Little trinkets I think she might like, a surprise dinner, doing some dishes that we've been letting slide, making tea, refilling water, whatever. And she does the same for me. And my friends, family, and co-workers tend to do the same as well. It's not silly. It's called kindness, and it's part of em…

Is she having to do a disproportionate amount of pleasing her partner though? We don't get that perspective, only that she's putting more effort than him into the parts she cares about - which might go both ways.

That's right. Whenever I start to feel this way (and it does happen from time to time), before I complain I remind myself that I don't ever even think about routine car maintenance or yard work, the taxes and their due dates and payments. I never have to get rid of (or cause!) dead rodents or unplug the toilets or remember to dig out the hairball accumulating in the drain. Everyone's got an emotional or practical mental load; it's just easier to recognize your own.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#245

Post by BarkingChicken »

hasbroslasher wrote: post #218
BarkingChicken wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be missing the point. The gift that she wanted was the house cleaning service. She had already been planning/considering hiring someone anyway. The gift was that she would not have to do the work to find, vet, make the calls, research, arrange payment, schedule, etc. for this task. The gift was supposed to be him taking over that work. > The gift, for me, was not so much in the cleaning itself but t…

My response, then, is "Oh poor you! You have to call the proletarian house cleaners, rub shoulders with the 'help'! How difficult it must be." Leftist cynicism aside: I'm talking more about the "socks on the floor, chair in the way, keeping the house in order mentally" side of things

As the other commenter said, it has nothing to do with elitism. Research takes time. Calling people takes time. And god forbid you have to call a government or medical entity, you might be on the phone for hours.

Do you realize how hard it is to get a straight answer on how much things SHOULD cost with regards to housekeeping, lawn care services, plumbing, tree services, roofing, foundation repair, and the list goes on? Sure you can call the company and ask, but are you getting ripped off? Now you have to call 5 companies and compare to see what the average price is and where you might get the best price. There goes 45 minutes of time (if you're lucky).

Plus you have to vet these people. If they're going to be in your house/yard handling your things you want to make sure they are trustworthy and possibly licensed/bonded as may apply. So you go down the rabbit hole of yelp and NextDoor and Thumbtack and whatever else you may find only to read about things that you didn't even realize you needed to be worried about. Well, there goes another hour.

Finally you have to actually call them back and schedule. Does this day work? What do you need to do to prepare for them to come? Do you need to be there? Who needs to take off work for that?

Its just... a lot. Its a lot of work. And keeping track of what needs to be done and when and your husband won't use a damn google service so you can't just sync calendars and he won't even look at the one on the fridge anyway is just exhausting. There's a reason why one of the highest ranked reasons for strife in a marriage is an imbalance of housework.

I actually do hope that my comment reads as anxiety inducing as I think it does. Its a lot, and it feels stupid at the time to even have to do it. You think we don't know that we seem like over-anxious worriers? We're in 2017! Why can't we have automated this? But then I'd have to be the one to figure out what automated service to go with and determine if we can trust it to not rip us off and figure out what their customer service is like if something goes wrong, ad nauseum.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#246

Post by goptimize »

zug_zug wrote: post #231

If the goal of this article is to validate frustrated wives, maybe it has succeeded. But if conversely, it was aiming at making a compelling case to men I don't think it has. I for one feel stereotyped and vilified (and I also feel at risk of being criticized for even admitting my own feelings). What I'd recommend the author do is- 1. Reflect on her feelings. What does she really want, what is it really about / a sym…

"my freelance work had picked up considerably" - she might simply be ready to move on

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#247

Post by dominotw »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #43

>That’s the point,” I said, now in tears, “I don’t want to have to ask.” >Walking that fine line to keep the peace and not upset your partner is something women are taught to accept as their duty from an early age. >My husband is a good man, and a good feminist ally. >However, it’s not as easy as telling him that. My husband, despite his good nature and admirable intentions, still responds to criticism in a very patr…

> That’s the point,” I said, now in tears, “I don’t want to have to ask.”

> Good communication. Never expect the other partner to read your mind.

This reminds me of the scene from the movie 'The Break-Up 'with Vince Vaughn and Jennifer Aniston .

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#248

Post by BarkingChicken »

Spivak wrote: post #243
CaptSpify wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about "talking to the proletarians". It's about the emotional work involved with talking to a bunch of people, organizing those discussions, comparing the results, etc. As a generally introverted person, just thinking about discussing the details with 3 or more people makes me feel exhausted. And that doesn't even count the planning, review, time off of work, etc.

Nomenclature question, why are we calling the work involved securing a vendor emotional labor? In any office this would just be called labor.

Its just the common term for it. Is it the most correct term? Probably not. But its this invisible labor that many people don't even recognize exists, so to lump it in with regular physical labor pretty much to ignore it.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#249

Post by dredmorbius »

dang wrote: post #24
rhapsodic wrote: post #9

Based on its content, I'm surprised this made the #6 spot on the front page of HN, but now it seems to have disappeared altogether. I had to search to find it.

Users flagged it, presumably because HN threads have a track record of not being able to stay civil and substantive when this sort of topic is invoked. There's also the baity title, which looks neutral on the article page because of the whopper it's paired with, but amounts to a Molotov cocktail here. Internet forums—or at least this internet forum—does not do well with gender generalizations in titles. So in accorda…

Speaking for myself: the article, the original title, the subtitle, and the hero image are all blatant flamebait.

There are a few, small, nuggets of truth here. What I mostly see is a dysfunctional relationship, grossly mis-matched expectations, and more than a slight possiblility of some deep-seated psychological issues. Even is you see all of these points without subscribing to any anti-feminist viewpoints (and I don't), it's pretty flagrantly obvious that those will appear in spades in a discussion (and have, and have, mostly, been rightfully flagged).

The third-party version of this might make for an interesting case study, and might even have carry-over to various workplace and inter-personal dynamics. As written and presented -- blame applying to the author and Harper's Bazaar -- this is poisoned.

Re: How Emotional Labor is Dragging Down Gender Equality

#250

Post by CaptSpify »

orthecreedence wrote: post #200
brighteyes wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're missing the point. She mentions that the clean house isn't the goal, the clean house would "simply be a bonus" But all she actually asked for is the clean house, that's the communication problem here.

No, she asked for a cleaning service. Not a clean house.

> For Mother's Day I asked for one thing: a house cleaning service.

I don't see her quoting what she told her husband, so we only have her summary to go off of. I think the details would be important here.

Post reply on HN