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Ending factory farming as soon as possible

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Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#71

Post by pg314 »

pvaldes wrote: post #68
openfuture wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something in the ocean is definitely eating that leftover fish, not throwing it away is not a "free" change.

Yes, there are a few "trophic highways" in the sea. Carrion eating animals is one of them, and lobsters are one of its members. On the other hand fishermen do not discard so many small fishes as previously. Our cats and dogs will eat that. "ending factory farming as soon as possible" equals at this moment to "killing by famine a lot of surplus humans as soon as possible". We need to produce more food, not less, becau…

> "ending factory farming as soon as possible" equals at this moment to "killing by famine a lot of surplus humans as soon as possible".

The article is talking about animal factory farming. Eliminating animal factory farming would free up more than enough resources to feed humans directly. The conversion from plant calories to meat calories is not very efficient.

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#72

Post by pvaldes »

pg314 wrote: post #71
pvaldes wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are a few "trophic highways" in the sea. Carrion eating animals is one of them, and lobsters are one of its members. On the other hand fishermen do not discard so many small fishes as previously. Our cats and dogs will eat that. "ending factory farming as soon as possible" equals at this moment to "killing by famine a lot of surplus humans as soon as possible". We need to produce more food, not less, becau…

> "ending factory farming as soon as possible" equals at this moment to "killing by famine a lot of surplus humans as soon as possible". The article is talking about animal factory farming. Eliminating animal factory farming would free up more than enough resources to feed humans directly. The conversion from plant calories to meat calories is not very efficient.

I know it, I can read :-), and is not so easy as you thing.

Animals in animal factory farming can be feeded with things that neither humans nor plants can/would accept directly.

Animal factory farming by-products also are needed to support agriculture. Using human faeces at large scale to fertilize the spoil is not so good idea as using horse, goat, cow or pig faeces (Because human faeces carry more types of human transmisible parasites and more often than faeces in non-human animals).

Agriculture without using fertilizers will not provide the same harvests.

We have only one planet and the only land available yet to put all this cattle (that is apt to breed cattle and not used yet) are the last sanctuaries of biodiversity. We will need to burn the forests if we want to scalate our solution of "freedom for all cows and pigs".

Therefore we must be aware that our shiny plan of liberating resources to feed humans could backfire easily in several parts.

There is not a morally-magic solution for our current problems (and we have big problems). Meat generated in lab will need also resources to grow. We talk about chemical resources, lots of water, sterilization material and lots of energy. And currently is just a very expensive way with the main purpose to provide vegans with a exit way to lie to themselves and eat meat that "is not meat, just a nerveless animal tissue thin as a paper".

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#73

Post by chiefalchemist »

cies wrote: post #65
chiefalchemist wrote: post #39

I don't think most people really care about animals suffering, or not. However, most people do care about themselves and their children. Long to short, factor farming generates a lot of ground level pollution. Furthermore, those animals also generate a lot of greenhouse gases. Frame the problem in terms of human suffering and more people are likely to pay attention. Years ago there was a NY Times Sunday magazine feat…

I see 3 main reasons: 1. Environmental -- For "our children" as you call it. This assumes that countries have gov'ts that give a shit and are not totally controlled by the industry (essentially the mega shareholders) 2. Health -- Plant-based (especially whole plant food) diet is much, much healthier than the a diet that contains several serving of meat/dairy/eggs per week (many have that in a day). This is ALSO an ar…

I agree with all those reasons. But the majority of people don't care unless you make it personal. Making the world a better place isn't good enough, it's too abstract. You have to answer "What's in it for me?"

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#74

Post by [deleted] »

EGreg wrote: post #31
apenwarr wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. That's why you need regulations, not billionaires, in both cases.

So can advocates of capitalism admit that it needs to be regulated? How would factory farms have been abolished under anarcho capitalism? How would child labor or sweatshops be abolished? They say that under the NAP there would be no coersion, but clearly there is. They say private ownership of animals will prevent their extinction, like commercial bees. That may be true but what about their welfare?

[deleted]

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#76

Post by fenwick67 »

DougN7 wrote: post #8

Just pointing out an unintended consequence I saw in a cartoon: As soon as nobody farms cows for meat, milk, and leather, cows will become an endangered species/extinct because nobody will pay to keep them alive. And there's not much space where they could survive on their own in the wild.

Interesting fact: the Aurochs (the ancestor of the domestic cow) is actually extinct already.

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#77

Post by cies »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #73
cies wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see 3 main reasons: 1. Environmental -- For "our children" as you call it. This assumes that countries have gov'ts that give a shit and are not totally controlled by the industry (essentially the mega shareholders) 2. Health -- Plant-based (especially whole plant food) diet is much, much healthier than the a diet that contains several serving of meat/dairy/eggs per week (many have that in a day). This is ALSO an ar…

I agree with all those reasons. But the majority of people don't care unless you make it personal. Making the world a better place isn't good enough, it's too abstract. You have to answer "What's in it for me?"

I was replying to a post roughly answering "what's in it for me" by "what's in it for your children". All wanted to show that the 3 main reasons for going vegan/plant-based all have a strong "for the children" side to them.

There's a huge influx of people in the vegan/plant-based communities from very health conscious people. Many of them believe that science is showing that it allows them to live healthier/happier/longer/stronger.

Is that not a good answer to "What's in it for me?" :)

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#78

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

tanilama wrote: post #25
jkchu wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the main issue is with farming in general, but with factory farming. Raising farm animals in a humane way is a huge improvement.

Who is going to be pay for the raised cost then. Government tax?

Many people (/me included) already buy sustainably-raised meat direct from farmers. It's better tasting and often cheaper than meat in the supermarket.

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#79

Post by mikestew »

blizkreeg wrote: post #20
NeoBasilisk wrote: post #2

I think lab-grown meat (if it ever becomes economically feasible) is the only thing that can ever put a dent in factory farming.

I'm all for lab-grown meat but I do question if you'll ever fully satisfy the meat lovers. In my opinion, a better approach would be a hybrid meat/fake meat option which would still make a huge dent in factory farming but appeal to the palates of those who love their cheeseburger. If we can cut down "real" meat consumption by even half, you could in theory make all cows free range.

I'm all for lab-grown meat but I do question if you'll ever fully satisfy the meat lovers

I dunno, how much worse could it be if it is substituting the meat in, say, a McDonalds hamburger? By the time the cheese and special sauce are added, does anyone notice the difference? Sure, one might have special occasions when you go spend $200 for a real, dead cow dinner. But I’ll bet most meat consumption isn’t in the form of “slab of ribeye” but ground up to be unrecognizable Taco Bell meat and chicken nuggets. I’m also willing to bet the person placing the order at Taco Bell is not in meat conisseur mode, but in “fill the hole so the grumbling sounds stop” mode.

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#80

Post by mikestew »

golemotron wrote: post #27

Am I the only one who wonders how what the actual difference in suffering is in free range vs. factory farming? There might be a lot of projection going on - people imagining themselves in the same circumstance as the animals and missing the mark because of the differences between our sense of life and that of other animals. As an example, I once spoke to a person who thought the movie _The March of the Penguins_ was…

There is ample documentation of the difference in behaviors between factory-farmed animals and free range. People aren’t just making this up.

But as an aside, I’d argue that you’re bordering on the “Africans don’t mind the heat of the cotton fields” line of thinking to make ourselves feel better about owning slaves. Like with the animals, even the slightest bit of effort in the way of research will tell you that’s not true.

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