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Yes, We Get Wiser with Age

nautil.us

21–30 of 109 posts

Re: Yes, We Get Wiser with Age

#21
post #15
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does "emotion" only equal "angry" and "having a temper"? Is this also a puritan/evangelical thing? What about displays of love and tenderness? And even so, the answer to your question is most of the times "yes", at least in my case, as in I do prefer to spill it out in the heat of the moment instead of keeping it all inside. It's not wrong having "emotions" and displaying them, I though that this was established sinc…

The point wasn't about showing emotions, it was about controlling emotions so that you have conscious choice over whether to show them or not. For instance, in certain circumstances anger may be appropriate to be shown, but in other cases if you show anger it could work against you. Similarly with humour or any other emotion.

I see your point now, thanks. Still personally think that this makes people more "stiff" and more "false", so to speak, which I personally don't like. Maybe it's a cultural thing (I live in Eastern Europe, am in my mid-30s now).

Re: Yes, We Get Wiser with Age

#22
post #2

> Empirical studies have shown that older people are better than younger ones in terms of control over emotion, knowing themselves better, making better decisions that require experience, and having more compassion and empathy towards others. These are the things I include in wisdom. So are things that are components of wisdom that can increase with aging. How does this explain Brexit? https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfro…

I think part of the explanation is cultural changes over time. The EU is very much a symbol of internationalism/globalism, even if localised into a continental context, while Brexit is a nationalistic rebellion against it. Nationalism was more popular/accepted in the past (especially so for British nationalism), so older people tend to be more sympathetic to nationalism, and hence more likely to support Brexit. Whereas, I think the popular culture is moving away from nationalism and towards internationalism/globalism instead. (Not universally – subgroups like the alt right are moving in the other direction, but they are a minority.) Part of that move is no doubt due to the Internet, which helps people see themselves as part of one planet by interacting with people in other countries on a regular basis. Teenagers watching YouTube are just as likely to watch videos from other countries as their own (provided they understand the language), which is accelerating the process of global unification of popular culture which the media and entertainment industries had already begun. But these sorts of cultural changes always effect the younger people the most, whereas older people are more likely to retain cultural outlooks prevalent when they were younger. The young are naturally a leading indicator of social and cultural change, the old a trailing indicator of it.

(It is more complicated in that a lot of younger people can be positive about globalist/internationalist institutions such as the EU and the UN over nation-states, yet also often quite sympathetic to separatist nationalisms such as those of Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque country, Kosovo, Palestine, Kurdistan, Tibet, West Papua, etc. To some extent that seems contradictory, and the idealist tendency of the young to support the underdog may explain that contradiction; on the other hand, to support regional nationalisms can be in a way anti-nationalistic, in that supporting smaller nationalisms against larger ones (e.g. Scottish nationalism against British nationalism, Basque/Catalan nationalism against Spanish nationalism) can be seen as consistent with a broader anti-nationalist outlook–one can foresee a future for Europe in which the existing nation-states are sucked away simultaneously in both directions, upward by the growth in power of the EU and downward by devolutionist and secessionist movements (that are hopeful that the structures of the EU might make their devolutionist or secessionist projects easier and more successful.))

Re: Yes, We Get Wiser with Age

#23
post #14
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's seen as better. Do you lose your temper and get angry after every setback or inconvenience? This is so self-evident I'm surprised it's even discussed.

Does "emotion" only equal "angry" and "having a temper"? Is this also a puritan/evangelical thing? What about displays of love and tenderness? And even so, the answer to your question is most of the times "yes", at least in my case, as in I do prefer to spill it out in the heat of the moment instead of keeping it all inside. It's not wrong having "emotions" and displaying them, I though that this was established sinc…

I'm not sure where you got the idea that "control over emotions" equals "not displaying emotions". I'd say it rather equals "not acting on emotions".

Situation: You are angry at a person.

- Control over emotion: You tell them you're angry and why.

- Lack of control: You punch them in the face.

Situation: You see a person in need of help.

- Control over emotion: You allocate reasonable amounts of resources to help them.

- Lack of control: You drop everything and spend all resources availabel to help them.

Anecdata time. The later situation was comically obvious a month or so ago in Sweden. We have a group of people (supposedly) from Afghanistan that may or may not get deported. They are protesting in our capital, and the protest had been going on for some time. A high profile lawyer raises some money (amounting to a couple of thousand dollars) in order to support these people. He goes to where the protesters are assembled. The first person he speaks to, he feels so sorry for that he decides just to give her the entire sum of money he has raised, and be done with it.

I'd argue that (apart from committing borderline fraud), this person displayed an unreasonable lack of control over his "love and tenderness". He spent a fairly large amount of money that could have been used to help a large group of people on a single individual on the spur of the moment.

Having emotions is not wrong. Showing them is not wrong either. Letting them get the best of you (i.e. lacking control over them) often is.

Re: Yes, We Get Wiser with Age

#24
post #21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point wasn't about showing emotions, it was about controlling emotions so that you have conscious choice over whether to show them or not. For instance, in certain circumstances anger may be appropriate to be shown, but in other cases if you show anger it could work against you. Similarly with humour or any other emotion.

I see your point now, thanks. Still personally think that this makes people more "stiff" and more "false", so to speak, which I personally don't like. Maybe it's a cultural thing (I live in Eastern Europe, am in my mid-30s now).

I think it can also be situational as well - you can obviously be freer with emotions with close friends then at work.

(46, English)

Re: Yes, We Get Wiser with Age

#25
post #21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point wasn't about showing emotions, it was about controlling emotions so that you have conscious choice over whether to show them or not. For instance, in certain circumstances anger may be appropriate to be shown, but in other cases if you show anger it could work against you. Similarly with humour or any other emotion.

I see your point now, thanks. Still personally think that this makes people more "stiff" and more "false", so to speak, which I personally don't like. Maybe it's a cultural thing (I live in Eastern Europe, am in my mid-30s now).

Whether the persona they show is more or less like their true self depends on what you consider their "true self" to be. If you look at any sort of school of thought which embraced asceticism, you'll find people that, because we experience way more emotional changes over a day than we experience changes on our set of desired behaviors, came to think of emotions as unreal, annoying distractions. The major example of this kind of thinking being Stoicism, but really, it just of sort of permeated every other pre-modern society.

So yeah, I don't think it's a "puritan/evangelical" thing. It's more of a "anything but contemporary urban society" thing.

Re: Yes, We Get Wiser with Age

#26
post #2

> Empirical studies have shown that older people are better than younger ones in terms of control over emotion, knowing themselves better, making better decisions that require experience, and having more compassion and empathy towards others. These are the things I include in wisdom. So are things that are components of wisdom that can increase with aging. How does this explain Brexit? https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfro…

>How does this explain Brexit?

Brexit is a political decision. It's not inherently good or bad, some people with so and so interests find it good, others with so and so interests find it bad. Similarly, some people think other people voted that "against their own best interests", other people think that they voted according to their interests just fine, and that the condescending ones don't really know better.

Countries signed up to the EU because of certain proposed benefits (among them, the idea that they need to keep Germany bound, an openly stated goal of early diplomats and politicians that were fundamental in the creation of ECSC/EEC/EU. Long after that, Germany re-united, took the de facto economic leadership of EU, and now votes for AfD.

(For a great overview of the climate and the tensions behind EU's creation and later development, I suggest: https://www.amazon.com/New-Old-World-Perry-Anderson/dp/18446... ).

Furthermore, EU has always been problematic from a democratic perspective, with bureaucrats at the helm, and an opaque process of decision-making (complete with several non-official-bodies, non-accountable to anyone, that nevertheless convene and take decisions that affect all member states). Add to that certain "circles of influence" between countries due to historical, cultural and economic ties, where a country might control several other countries votes (and thus have undue influence in EU decisions) and it's not that great a bundle deal.

So, if some country doesn't see the benefits in EU membership, they can always flee. Whether it will hurt its economy is not the be-all end-all question to make the decision "rational" or not, as a) the EU is not exactly a paragon of economic stability, b) economies can rebound, c) the economic impact is not the ultimate criterion by which countries decide everything they do. (As for an open market and open standard they can always happen across European countries without common single law and economic steering from Brussels -- I don't think China and the US for example have much issues in trading, despite not belonging to the same federation).

It's also about personal interests. Young voters might vote Bremain for reasons like "it's the progressive thing to do", "we want a united Europe", "I want to be able to work in any EU country" etc. Older voters might be more cynical on to what EU actually offers because of their experience, and they also don't have much to gain by EU mobility (nobody --and by that I mean extremely few-- is going to leave everything and start a new career in France in their 50s and 60s) or other things that might be enticing to young voters. That might be selfish of them, but it's not senile or irrational: it's pragmatic.

In other words, no, Brexit is not some "proof" that older British get increasingly unwise. At worst, it could mean that they can be wrong in some decision, as is the case with everyone. But the question was not whether they can never cast a wrong vote, but whether they have more experience, control over emotion, better decision making empathy, and other such traits TFA talks about than their younger cohorts. You can have all those and still make this or that bad decision.

Re: Yes, We Get Wiser with Age

#27
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no investment in the outcome of Brexit but I have to say that speaking as if it was objectively worse is dismissive of the section of population who showed up and voted in favour of it.

They deserve what they voted for. Have almost no direct stake in this, I'm just tired of this mantra of "showing respect for what people chose". It's not wrong telling someone that they made a bad decision, no matter if you offend said person by doing so. I personally wish my friends would be the same towards me, i.e. tell me whenever they think I made bad decisions.

>They deserve what they voted for.

That's always the case in democracy. But assuming that what they'll get will be negative (as the above insinuates) is akin to taking for granted what you should prove.

Re: Yes, We Get Wiser with Age

#28
post #6
post #2

> Empirical studies have shown that older people are better than younger ones in terms of control over emotion, knowing themselves better, making better decisions that require experience, and having more compassion and empathy towards others. These are the things I include in wisdom. So are things that are components of wisdom that can increase with aging. How does this explain Brexit? https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfro…

I am curious too, the brexit vote for many people was an emotional one. It was certainly not based in any logic that anyone can cite. That sample is too large to be anecdatum. However to play devils advocate; leave voters were drip fed anti-EU propaganda for decades with nobody on the EU side defending it, and the run up to the referendum there was a lot of lying. So the fault may be that people were more susceptible…

And remain voters were drip fed state-sponsored pro-EU propaganda as well.

The EU spends tons of money for promoting itself.

Re: Yes, We Get Wiser with Age

#29
post #2

> Empirical studies have shown that older people are better than younger ones in terms of control over emotion, knowing themselves better, making better decisions that require experience, and having more compassion and empathy towards others. These are the things I include in wisdom. So are things that are components of wisdom that can increase with aging. How does this explain Brexit? https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfro…

> How does this explain Brexit?

You are framing this like Brexit was a mistake.

In a few more years I guess you'll understand better.

Note: I'm not saying I'd vote leave but at least I'm old enough to see why others would.

Re: Yes, We Get Wiser with Age

#30
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They deserve what they voted for. Have almost no direct stake in this, I'm just tired of this mantra of "showing respect for what people chose". It's not wrong telling someone that they made a bad decision, no matter if you offend said person by doing so. I personally wish my friends would be the same towards me, i.e. tell me whenever they think I made bad decisions.

I did use the phrase "objectively worse". I see no substantiation for that yet. Also, this depends a lot on what they were looking for when they voted. I can easily say one of these: I do/don't like the outcome. However, I find it difficult to say: "they collectively chose incorrectly". I do, however, agree that in general a population deserves whatever it is that they voted for.

> However, I find it difficult to say: "they collectively chose incorrectly".

That might just because you are a tolerant, reasonable person.

If you were a bit more arrogant and rude like some others at this site it would be much easier for you.

Source: Back when I was an even more intolerant, stupid and annoying guy I had no problems flaming whole religions or nations.

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