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Ending factory farming as soon as possible

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61–70 of 83 posts

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#61
post #8

Just pointing out an unintended consequence I saw in a cartoon: As soon as nobody farms cows for meat, milk, and leather, cows will become an endangered species/extinct because nobody will pay to keep them alive. And there's not much space where they could survive on their own in the wild.

There's projects to breed cattle into something closer to the Aurochs, with the eventual goal of having herds in the wild. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs#Breeding_of_aurochs-li...

Interesting, didn't know that!

I found myself reading this list several times. Intriguing how we have "no wilds" left for soo many of our "favorite" animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#62
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Gqf7jQvZg

I'm not sure I'm convinced that's happiness. I jump like that when I need to pee.

^clearly a bot account

(but there are ~hundreds of similar vids if not convinced)

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#63
I really can't fathom the dogmatic line on vegans/vegetarians when it comes to insect farming for human consumption...

They talk about it toward 2:20 (I do like how they had a full transcript and ToC so you can jump around in the audio).

In any case, my take away was that because there might be some chance of a "net negative" life for insects in farms, we shouldn't be looking to replace some of our protein needs by insects.

Given the sheer amount of ecological damage that is being done to the planet with each season of industrial animal farming, I really don't understand why we're not looking at lab-grown insects as the MVP for "lab-grown meat".

The problems needing to be solved to make crickets/mealworm protein a scaled operation that could reduce the demand on chicken/beef/pork are much easier than growing meat in a lab (feel pretty confident in this claim, open to rebuttal).

How many cows would be saved every year if just 1 major fast-food burger joint switched to 50/50 mealworm-beef burgers? Would anyone even notice if Taco Bell switched their taco meat to be 50% ground crickets?

What resources are required to make lab grown meat anyways? Where are they sourced from? What habitats are collapsing to provide the necessary solvents/catalysts/preservatives/energy/etc for whatever solutions it needs to grow in? What are the negative externalities of this lab-growing process? What does that look like at the scale necessary to take even 20% of the current beef demand?

We're twisting our britches over what a cricket or mealworm might feel in a factory farm setting, yet they are basically the perfect little machines for turning carbohydrates, water and air into essential human-accessible proteins and vitamins (crickets have a ton of B12, just like red meat). They're the perfect stop-gap solution until the lab meat is ready for prime-time.

Also, insect-farming waste products are typically just great compost and fertilizer and you could basically grow insects underground (mealworms love the dark) and grow their substrate/feed above them. I think calories/acre would be another useful measurement to look at when trying to evaluate which direction human agriculture should be headed.

Alright, TL;DR - Insect farming is low hanging fruit for alleviating the ecological pressure of factory animal farming which is being ignored for no good reason. /rant

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#64

I think lab-grown meat (if it ever becomes economically feasible) is the only thing that can ever put a dent in factory farming.

It seems the meat and dairy industry is subsidized by the government. One source[1] quote $38 billion yearly while only $17 million goes to the fruit and vegetable industry (The US).

Shifting subsidies to greener and more ethical industries would be a good start. The "fake-meat" improves all the time and if it actually were cheaper (in-store) than the meat option things could start to happen. Typically that's not the case[2]. Probably due to a combination of scale, subsidies, willingness to pay amongst vegans and health concerned customers and store policy (key product might be sold at very low margins/loss to attract customers)

Estimates of the external cost caused by the meat industry (health, pollution) is also quite high. Special taxes can be used here, while cutting taxes on better products.

[1] https://www.peta.org/living/food/10-things-wish-everyone-kne... (admittingly not the most objective source)

[2] Based on Norwegian stores

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#65

I don't think most people really care about animals suffering, or not. However, most people do care about themselves and their children. Long to short, factor farming generates a lot of ground level pollution. Furthermore, those animals also generate a lot of greenhouse gases. Frame the problem in terms of human suffering and more people are likely to pay attention. Years ago there was a NY Times Sunday magazine feat…

I see 3 main reasons:

1. Environmental -- For "our children" as you call it. This assumes that countries have gov'ts that give a shit and are not totally controlled by the industry (essentially the mega shareholders)

2. Health -- Plant-based (especially whole plant food) diet is much, much healthier than the a diet that contains several serving of meat/dairy/eggs per week (many have that in a day). This is ALSO an argument for the children, as they will learn from us. (We could not tell kids to not smoke, we have to stop ourselves too!)

3. Ethical -- Whole categories of abuse towards fellow earthlings (poor, women, slaves, lower-caste, captured enemies, etc.) were generally accepted as permissible, yet are now near unanimously condemned. It is not unfathomable that animals --that are currently still being permissibly abused for being of a different species-- may get added to that list.

Also the ethical reason will have a huge impact on "our children". As we have seen with the other steps we made in awareness, it is totally worth making these steps.

Peace.

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lab-made synthetic flavors* are readily distinguished from non-lab flavours. Getting lab-made flavors right must be an easier problem than growing a steak in the lab... and we still still can't do it. * a.k.a. artifical and natural flavours - the only difference between artificial and natural is the starting ingredient in the synthesis

Idk, I'm not convinced. You're comparing two very different processes--- artificial flavors are a matter of organic chemistry and if we [humans] are guiding the process, then we have to get every single fraction of chemicals exactly right. Whereas, when you have cells, you already have a system that grows and does the chemistry via it's own enzymes. The dream is that you "just add sugar / water / salt" and it'll grow…

Okay, fair enough. Do you agree that getting factory farm meat to taste as good as pastured meat is an easier problem?

As an example, given a pastured chicken, a factory chicken, and a lab chicken, is it easier to get the factory chicken to taste like the pastured chicken, or to get the lab chicken to taste like the pastured chicken?

I have never tasted a factory chicken that compares to a pastured chicken, and I'm skeptical about whether it's possible. But nevertheless I believe that's an easier problem than getting the lab chicken right, which of course implies that in my opinion a good-as-pastured lab chicken is exceedingly difficult.

But I'll readily agree we can make something that most humans would identify as meat in the lab and that a large number of them would be happy to eat it. After all, people enjoy eating all sorts of processed food as it is.

Given this, I guess the real question is, can you make a lab chicken taste as good as a factory chicken? I don't know, probably...

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Animals aren't totally different than us. We share a lot of similarities biologically, and even in our brain structures. It's safe to assume that herd animals need a decent amount of space to roam around, and that crowding is stressful and possibly causes mental illnesses. This is even more true of animals like pigs. Imagine dogs living their lives out in kennels. Also consider the change in behavior in zoo animals w…

Thanks. That really has me wondering about the penguins now. Hundreds of thousands of years and evolution has made no accommodation for their emotional well being.

Why would evolution make an accommodation for their emotional well being if the penguins are fit enough in their environment to pass their genes on?

That being said, I have no idea what it's like to be a penguin, or how much they suffer. I did watch March of the Penguins and it seemed the males huddling together deep in Antarctica during the winter were uncomfortable.

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#68
post #28

Looking through the different approaches on the list, I am missing one large one. Fishermen are currently throwing away a majority of caught fish because people only buy a very small selection of species (which also differ between nations). We could more than double the amount of fish meat that get eaten without changing the number of fish being killed, and yet for mostly cultural reasons we don't.

Something in the ocean is definitely eating that leftover fish, not throwing it away is not a "free" change.

Yes, there are a few "trophic highways" in the sea. Carrion eating animals is one of them, and lobsters are one of its members.

On the other hand fishermen do not discard so many small fishes as previously. Our cats and dogs will eat that.

"ending factory farming as soon as possible" equals at this moment to "killing by famine a lot of surplus humans as soon as possible". We need to produce more food, not less, because we are more people than the year before, not less.

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#69
post #7

I think lab-grown meat (if it ever becomes economically feasible) is the only thing that can ever put a dent in factory farming.

Why doesn't a billionaire just buy up 95% of all the factory farms and start converting them to free range, while lowering output and raising prices? Why don't we as a society subsidize the cost? Would save a lot of lives from suffering. Whatever argument you make against this can also be made in favor of making more cramped prisons and working human prisoners to the bone. Capitalism is designed to exploit externalit…

Seems like a good plan, but the problem is that the available land is scarce and we only have one planet.

So we'll have to choice either to undig (and uncontaminate) the fertile lands under the roads and streets in the urban areas, that is a way;

or instead burn the last forests and give our precious natural areas to the pigs, literally. The pressure to ocuppy still relatively intact areas and the last protected sanctuaries for biodiversity would be irresistible and inescapable.

And is a wrong (but much repeated) idea than we'll stop the suffering. Is just that they are conveniently dismissing the suffering caused to the ecosystems. "Gazillions" of savage animals, plants, trees and fungi will suffer inmensely if we scalate the solution to all our cattle.

Re: Ending factory farming as soon as possible

#70
post #28

Looking through the different approaches on the list, I am missing one large one. Fishermen are currently throwing away a majority of caught fish because people only buy a very small selection of species (which also differ between nations). We could more than double the amount of fish meat that get eaten without changing the number of fish being killed, and yet for mostly cultural reasons we don't.

While I'd rather see mass fishing stopped entirely (and I don't eat fish, or any other meat, on ethical grounds), that's a valid point. I often think of the fact that lobster was once considered trash, or only to be consumed by the lowest classes, and only through an effective marketing campaign did it become a luxury food. But, realistically, many ocean ecosystems are already on the brink of collapse. Merely increas…

The waste problem in the other points of the production chain is indeed massive and solvable. The idea that fresh produce is sent to stores only to have a fraction being bought is a massive waste in both food and introduction of additional middle man. Online markets for food could fix this, but I have yet to see one that can compete on prices. It might happen once transport costs go down.

To go back to marine ecosystem, those that are on the brink of collapse is so mainly because of 3 causes. Pollution, invasive species, and over overfishing towards specific fish stocks. Both invasive species and overpopulation caused by eutrophication could actually use an increase in fishing in order to increase biodiversity, but a common element in both is that no one want to pay for it. To my knowledge it actually common problem in many fresh water lakes.

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