Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 225 posts

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#191

Post by drewmol »

wils1245 wrote: post #177
lambdaphagy wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if the women of this planet decide that male votes are shit, what then? Are we just going to have to fight it out? Democracy is a technology for simulating civil wars without going through the formality of fighting them. So it's desirable that the side that wins the election be the side that would have won the civil war. If this is chronically untrue, then the side that would have won the civil war has little…

Desirable for whom?

If I am interpreting the parents position correctly: desirable for the majority of interested parties on both sides of the particular issue(s). Certainly in the situations where "the side that wins the election be the side that would have won the civil war.", resolving the conflict in a civil, structured, non-violent and non-destructive fashion is desirable to most.

Typically when the side that would have won the civil war is unclear, it's also desirable to most.

Even when the (civil war favorite) party loses the political battle (election), usually the issue is not deemed important enough to accept the consequences of civil war, and a structured political/governmental/legestative resolution is the desirable outcome (for most) when weighed against engaging in a violent community/nation-wide conflict.

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#192

Post by alexasmyths »

ihsw2 wrote: post #33
idoh wrote: post #19

"Low oil prices have limited the government jobs that many Saudis have long relied on, and the kingdom is trying to push more citizens, including women, into gainful employment. But some working Saudi women say hiring private drivers to get them to and from work eats up much of their pay, diminishing the incentive to work." I'm guessing that this is the biggest driver - Saudi Arabia just cannot afford to not allow th…

The dual income household had an unbelievable impact on Western and Asian economies, buoying incredible growth. How the KSA handles the coming social liberalization will be interesting, Chinese women still grapple with social conservative attitudes regarding working women (ie: leftover women). It is inevitable that the people of the KSA will encounter similar difficulties.

" buoying incredible growth."

That only depends on how you measure value.

A parent leaves their kids with their grandparents during the day = $0 GDP.

A parent drops of them off at daycare = +$X GDP.

Just because people were not working in the economic system does not mean there was not real value creation.

My mother sometimes worked, sometimes did not. The difference in the quality of our lives was quite noticeably more negative when she worked. That 'negative value' is not measured in the GDP - only the 'positive value' of her income.

I'm not saying that she shouldn't have, and certainly not that there should not have been mass reforms - but it's important to remember that much of 'real consumer surplus' is simply not measured in the GDP.

Policies that focus on the GDP tend to overweight measurable economic activity - while other elements are externalized and suffer.

The environment, community, social cohesion - they all have value to us but because we don't put numbers behind them, they don't fit into the equations very well.

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#193

Post by lovich »

nnfy wrote: post #160
noobermin wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, if you are a libertarian, many people claim the libertarian moniker but then say very illiberal things; check any comment section of Reason when there is a black person killed by a cop. It is getting very hard for people outside your group to identify what libertarian means anymore because of that. A similar thing is happening on the left I think, but since it is my group, I might not be as mindful of it.…

Libertarian != liberal Also, it is unfortunate that people continue to politicize police killings and attribute them to race. Such treatment is ignorant of stastics. I think these glaring inconsistencies are just starting to tear the left apart. The right have their own problems, but they dont tend to be so obscenely inconsistent as to divide the base along racial and gender lines.

What are the statistics they are ignorant of?

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#194

Post by vfulco »

qiqing wrote: post #65
ihsw2 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dual income household had an unbelievable impact on Western and Asian economies, buoying incredible growth. How the KSA handles the coming social liberalization will be interesting, Chinese women still grapple with social conservative attitudes regarding working women (ie: leftover women). It is inevitable that the people of the KSA will encounter similar difficulties.

Actually, the "leftover women" phrase refers to the relationship / marital status of some women, not their job status. Many of these women (including people I know personally) have reclaimed the term as a compliment -- there's a pun where they substitute a word that roughly means god-like or badass. My mom and both of my grandmothers lived in a world where the dual income household is the norm, and has been the norm…

Knowing more than a handful of 20s-30s ladies in SH through my Toastmasters club, although there is selection bias, they are some of the most capable, driven, hard working, talented young people I have ever met. And I am almost 50 so have seen a bit over the years. If they were unleashed by the system and cultural expectations, norms, and restrictions, there is nothing they could not accomplish.

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#195

Post by jeffdavis »

openfuture wrote: post #174
jeffdavis wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of philisophical points like this took a long time to develop (universal suffrage). Even if it seems "obvious" today, most people are just parroting what they've been taught and don't give it much consideration. Why don't you use the opportunity to address the points intellectually rather than silently thinking they are wrong? First of all, the statements are very different. One of your acquaintences advocated…

I think the key to what we call political correctness is having the common assumption or axiom that all humans are just as human and not fundamentally different in any significant way. As an individual you may not hold this belief in your heart, you may feel that some types of people are more or less qualified for certain tasks but when you start having a political discussion it is pragmatic for all parties to accept…

I am confused. Why are you defining "political correctness" in that way?

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#196

Post by imron »

jessaustin wrote: post #184
imron wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The pushback from conservative elements was one of the driving forces of the revolution. The other driving force being the CIA.

I thought CIA installed the Shah? They didn't also depose him, did they? I mean I know they have always been really short-sighted about this sort of thing, but that would take the cake...

You are right. I had my history mixed up and was thinking of the coup, not the revolution.

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#198

Post by adam_seeliger »

ericfrenkiel wrote: post #43

::slow clap:: It is absolutely appalling that this type of backwardness is still a reality in the 21st century. The faster we can transition to clean, renewable energy, the better for everyone in the world.

There is no such thing as a clean, renewable energy. It's a myth. Moron.

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#199

Post by kweks »

jimmy2020 wrote: post #77
jayess wrote: post #61

When do they stop executing gays?

that will never happen in any muslim country at all

Except for: 1. Jordan (Decriminalised) 2. Turkey (Legal) 3. Lebanon (Allowable) 4. Oman (Illegal but tolerated) 5. Bahrain (Legal) 6. Iraq North (Kurdistan) 7. Palestine

Capital punishment is "only" carried out in: Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Afghanistan, Mauritania, Sudan, and northern Nigeria.

It's often better to not make assumptions, or quietly inform yourself first on subjects that you're not familiar with.

Re: Saudi Arabia Agrees to Let Women Drive

#200

Post by openfuture »

jeffdavis wrote: post #195
openfuture wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the key to what we call political correctness is having the common assumption or axiom that all humans are just as human and not fundamentally different in any significant way. As an individual you may not hold this belief in your heart, you may feel that some types of people are more or less qualified for certain tasks but when you start having a political discussion it is pragmatic for all parties to accept…

I am confused. Why are you defining "political correctness" in that way?

it was just a placeholder phrase for the concept I wanted to point out.
Post reply on HN