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China Blocks WhatsApp

nytimes.com

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Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#471

Post by capisce »

chaostheory wrote: post #465
lumberjack wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I have to disagree. How do you suppose more innovation would have happened if instead of China, blocking US tech, they let them have the whole market from the get go and instead of WeChat there would be Whatsapp and instead of Baidu, there would be Google? How is that more innovation? You can just look at Europe. I'm not advocating any policies or supporting anyone. I am just disputing the claim that free mark…

> How do you suppose more innovation would have happened if instead of China, blocking US tech, they let them have the whole market from the get go and instead of WeChat there would be Whatsapp and instead of Baidu, there would be Google? 1. Competition breeds innovation. Monopolies and the like encourage stagnation. 2. How do you know Google would win in China if China didn't block them? Unlike Europe, China is extr…

Sometimes trade protectionism is good for an economy. In fact it's the strategy all the somewhat successful Asian nations (South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, China) used to get ahead, whereas the countries who followed the neoliberalist model of the west too closely (Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, etc) lagged behind. Suggest reading 'How Asia Works' by Joe Studwell.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#473

Post by chalupa-man »

Danihan wrote: post #329
the_common_man wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Edit: This is not a justification or defense of internet censorship. It is an explanation of why the Chinese public may be more willing to accept strict government controls than the West. What are you talking about? The west has completely accepted surveillance by it's governments. The ideas by Locke, Rousseau, or Hobbes have 0 effect on western society. If you think western society is an 'freer', it's only because…

That's simply factually wrong. The US has much better press freedoms, freedom of speech and gun ownership rights than any other large country. It has nothing to do with an echo chamber. The laws are objectively very different. Comparing surveillance by the NSA to information accessibility in general is disingenuous at best.

"Than any other large country" is a big stretch. The US is ranked 43rd on this year's Press Freedom Index.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#474

Post by flexie »

alexasmyths wrote: post #351
flexie wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think censorship is only part of the reason. Protectionism and national security probably plays a role aswell. Look at the list of websites they block: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websites_blocked_in_mainland... Google, facebook, instagram, twitter etc. Those are one-way streets that provide next to no jobs, little tech transfer and no tax revenue to the countries they do business in, but tend to outcompete the…

"It's surprising that any country would allow that to continue unchecked." Hold on now - Google still provides immense value. And what does it cost? Nothing . The 'consumer surplus' value of G and FB are quite immense. Google captures a tiny fraction of the value they create via ads. What would Canada do without Google? There is no Google here. If we started with with 'government backing' it would be a s -show. I und…

> Google still provides immense value.

Absolutely. But so does Baidu. And while doing so, Baidu provides jobs and tax revenue in China with little national security risk for China. And at the same time Baidu creates thousands of extremely skilled Chinese software engineers.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#475

Post by meri_dian »

losvedir wrote: post #368
dmix wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is "China" in this case? Its government is the Communist Party. It's not going to abolish itself! I've read that something close to 1/3rd of the Chinese population is a member of the party or whose livelihood directly depends on it in some fashion where they are essentially a member. So this is a very good question.

If such a large proportion of the country is in the party, then... what's the problem? As I understand it, essentially any high performing college student can join the party, and then there's deal making and voting within the party. I wouldn't be surprised if there's different "factions" within the party, each fighting for control, or each who have a different vision for the future. Isn't that just a different framin…

When I was studying in China I happened to find myself sitting next to a group of Chinese my age (college age) studying intently in the common area of the University building I was in. I asked them what they were studying, and they told me they were studying for the exam they had to take in order to join the Communist party.

I was a bit taken aback, because these students didn't seem like 'communists', whatever that connoted in my mind at the time. They were about 6 of them, mix of men and women. They showed me what they were studying, some Marxist political philosophy, and told me that they wanted to join in order to improve their career opportunities.

Now, if that isn't the most hilarious irony in history I'm not sure what is. Studying Marxist political philosophy to join the Communist Party to unlock lucrative career opportunities. Priceless.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#476

Post by dis-sys »

elefanten wrote: post #426
FabHK wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In FinTech in particular, China is years ahead [1]. WeChat Pay had 100m users in 2014. [1] https://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/2171739...

This claim gets made a lot, especially by China's government in it's "four great modern inventions" marketing campaign. [1] I don't get it. None of those are Chinese inventions. They're all technologies China adopted really fast. It's a testament to market size, development speed and certain idiosyncrasies about Chinese demographics, etc. But it has nothing to do with invention or innovation. [1] http://www.chinadail…

WeChat has almost 1 billion active user, operating any system to support customer base that big requires innovations and inventions at various levels. for example, WeChat group published quite a lot high quality papers regarding their backend systems, the latest one probably being the VLDB 2017 paper on their PaxosStore capable of handling billions of strong consistency queries a second. This puts WeChat at the same level of Facebook, twitter, etc regarding innovation/invention.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#477

Post by andy_ppp »

uptownfunk wrote: post #437
dreamfactored wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. These are foreign-owned infrastructure platforms and China is protective about its markets. Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind, let alone infrastructure. 2. You seem to assume the bulk of innovation is going to be happening outside China and that blocking consumer access to Western platforms would somehow inhibit a flow of information to China. I'd disagree on both counts. The Chinese government is act…

This has little to do with China and innovation. The problem is mostly economical. China probably wants Chinese clones, clones that are incredibly valuable and based in China. All the wealth generated therefrom stays in China. That's it, it's likely an economical manipulation. And frankly, from an economical standpoint, well-played. (Hope I don't get downvoted to hell!)

I don’t understand the lack of reciprocal tariffs introduced by the US or are there some I don’t know of?

This is probably the economic equivalent of banning say mobile phones or some other large and important sector.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#478

Post by gaius »

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #349
gaius wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China will reach some predetermined level of technology that The Party decides they are comfortable with, then close their borders and just get on with being the Middle Kingdom in splendid isolation. That is my prediction. I don't think they feel the need to project power and remake the world the way the US and previously the UK do/did. Maybe they will disengage from the world and look spacewards.

Seems like you can either... A) Reach a predetermined level of technology you are comfortable with |OR| B) Look spacewards. Very hard to do both of those.

I mean reach a level at which you decide you don't need the rest of the world, that you're now self-sufficient. They can then take technology in the direction that suits The Party without external influence.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#479

Post by rdlecler1 »

chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

That is totally wrong. If you think that China lacks innovation then you clearly have never been there. China is one of the most dynamic capitalistic countries in the world and there is no shortage of innovation. Even if then they have 1/3rd the innovators as the US, they still have 40% more innovators than the U.S. Innovation will just happen within the context of Chinese political constraints. The real threat is not to innovators in China, but to the rest of the tech world who are locked out of the Chinese market because of assymetric market conditions.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#480

Post by rdlecler1 »

westiseast wrote: post #252
Certhas wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative: Innovation happens within the context of Chinas censorship and political regime. Blocking of entrenched western competitors allows home grown solutions to spring up, and local technological know how to develop faster. Capitalism and innovation turn out to work within the context of an illiberal society just fine. Especially as China avoids the mistake of closing itself off to the rest of the world, but s…

I'm a China hawk, but this is what has been happening and what will continue happening unless something massively more drastic than blocking a single minority foreign app happens. I think there's a tendency for people to overestimate the importance of foreign apps to Chinese consumers and to underestimate the Chinese market. It's almost laughable that people think blocking WhatsApp will make any difference to Chinese…

>I think there's a tendency for people to overestimate the importance of foreign apps to Chinese consumers

Yes, because foreign companies compete on an asymmetric playing field.

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