China Blocks WhatsApp • Hacker News Board

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#271

Post by FabHK » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 9:36 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #250

Certhas wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative: Innovation happens within the context of Chinas censorship and political regime. Blocking of entrenched western competitors allows home grown solutions to spring up, and local technological know how to develop faster. Capitalism and innovation turn out to work within the context of an illiberal society just fine. Especially as China avoids the mistake of closing itself off to the rest of the world, but s…

China will reach some predetermined level of technology that The Party decides they are comfortable with, then close their borders and just get on with being the Middle Kingdom in splendid isolation. That is my prediction. I don't think they feel the need to project power and remake the world the way the US and previously the UK do/did. Maybe they will disengage from the world and look spacewards.

Not entirely implausible. That's in a sense what they did after they sent out Admiral Zheng He with a fleet of ships and thousands of men in the early 15th centuryas far as East Africa - they concluded "meh, nothing interesting there", and shut down the whole program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#272

Post by starchand » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 9:36 PM UTC

Certhas wrote: post #117

chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

Alternative: Innovation happens within the context of Chinas censorship and political regime. Blocking of entrenched western competitors allows home grown solutions to spring up, and local technological know how to develop faster. Capitalism and innovation turn out to work within the context of an illiberal society just fine. Especially as China avoids the mistake of closing itself off to the rest of the world, but s…

100% this. And occasionally these apps out innervate their western counterparts. WeChat is better than WhatsApp, Facebook.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#273

Post by School-Cotton » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 9:37 PM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #245

School-Cotton wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Middle class", "upper class", etc. are not defined by percentiles. Otherwise it would mean nothing when we say a particular country has a "growing middle class".

If they were defined by percentiles (i.e. certain definitions of middle class dictate the middle 60% of the population by income), you could still describe a "growing middle class" as a middle class acquiring a greater percentage of total income. While the population of the middle class isn't growing, its buying power still could be.

Well sure, but that's not what anyone means by those words.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#274

Post by troisx » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

a1371 wrote: post #163

Certhas wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative: Innovation happens within the context of Chinas censorship and political regime. Blocking of entrenched western competitors allows home grown solutions to spring up, and local technological know how to develop faster. Capitalism and innovation turn out to work within the context of an illiberal society just fine. Especially as China avoids the mistake of closing itself off to the rest of the world, but s…

I think this alternative is more reasonable. Those who think China is just a copying machine, underestimate the influence the Chinese engineers had in the landscape of many industries. The hoverboards (the type with wheels) became a household product thanks to them. Conceptualization is not making something actually happen, unlike what the patent-trolls want us to believe. IoT was first proposed in the 90s, but did i…

I think it's funny that you chose hover boards. I haven't seen one in use in any major US city I've visited this year. I'm sure some people still use them, but thanks to terrible Chinese engineering that caused fires and failures, I don't know anyone that's bought one after the first couple of months that they were a fad.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#275

Post by WhitneyLand » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

Why can't steganography be used on top on the Chinese government endorsed app (WeChat)?

It wouldn't have to use images, it could use any data in the system or even spread it amount mutilple apps within WeChat.

By the way, a couple suggestions if you haven't used WeChat:

1) There is a really nice, canonical one pager out there for explaining WeChat to Americans, I highly recommended it.

2) Its important to note that WeChat despite its name, is miles away from being a simple chat app. It's an entire platform, almost OS like, complete with its own apps within an app. Their platform is incredibly rich, to the point that any significant business has some services available or at least a presence.

Before going to China on business I hadn't heard much about it, and only knew it existed because of some Chinese friends. However if you are planning a trip to China, go ahead an install it now because it's ubiquitous.

There is an English version and last time I checked it was reasonably up to date, although seemed to be missing a few features.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#276

Post by KGIII » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

frandroid wrote: post #171

tryingagainbro wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: what would happen if China abolished the Communist Party or whatever they call and chose democracy. Chaos? Breakdown of the country into separate states /provinces? Civil war? Military rule? I would not want to the one in charge the day after. Obviously (moderated) rule by the people is best but not sure how China and say countries in the mold of Saudi Arabia will handle it.

What is "China" in this case? Its government is the Communist Party. It's not going to abolish itself! The question to ask, if you want China to change, is to ask how would the Chinese Communist Party lose its grip on power. That would probably need to happen following an economic crisis. However, looking at how badly the Chavistas are driving Venezuela into the ground these days, and how much they're able to hold on…

To take the analogy a bit further with the boiling frogs, the frogs jumped out of the water, until Goltz removed the brains from the frogs.

So, how does that relate to China? Well, if they still have brains, they will reach a tipping point as the water warms. More closely, so long as they have access to information (I think) they will eventually decide that enough is enough.

So, then the question is do they have enough information? Do they have enough freedom to communicate with each other?

It's hard to say. I've been to China and I think the answer is actually an affirmative. They have plenty of information. They all know about the GFW, the censorship, and how it is different than the West. They don't appear to be under any illusions.

I've spoken, in person, with multiple people in China and they all know those things, as well as being up to date with their current local and national politics. It's hard to describe, but they just seem to accept it. I don't want to say they see it as a good thing, but they all pretty much say that it is for the national harmony.

They know about Tianamen square. They even have a special word for censorship - river crab, though I forget the reason. They know about the death penalties. They know about the corruption of local and national politicians. They seem to be as aware of their politics as much as we are aware of our own, maybe even more so.

It's a different mentality, I guess? They accept it and think it helps promote social harmony. It wasn't easy, and still isn't, for me to get my head around.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#277

Post by latj » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

Certhas wrote: post #117

chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

Alternative: Innovation happens within the context of Chinas censorship and political regime. Blocking of entrenched western competitors allows home grown solutions to spring up, and local technological know how to develop faster. Capitalism and innovation turn out to work within the context of an illiberal society just fine. Especially as China avoids the mistake of closing itself off to the rest of the world, but s…

Yes. This one.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#278

Post by nashashmi » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 9:40 PM UTC

flexie wrote: post #124

chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

I think censorship is only part of the reason. Protectionism and national security probably plays a role aswell. Look at the list of websites they block: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websites_blocked_in_mainland... Google, facebook, instagram, twitter etc. Those are one-way streets that provide next to no jobs, little tech transfer and no tax revenue to the countries they do business in, but tend to outcompete the…

It gives rise to possible corruption, like local corporate influences to block international competition.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#279

Post by KGIII » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 9:41 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #232

KGIII wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that the United States has any legal mechanism to prevent an online Chinese company from holding the top position and doing what American-native companies do with the data. At least I can't think of any such mechanism? Perhaps someone here is a legal scholar?

If the last years have show us anything it is that the USA government (and others) can create the legality that they think more convenient. For instance, you can invent a new category in order to avoid detaining people like criminals or war enemies if none of the laws applying to those are convenient.

True, and I wouldn't put it past them, but I know of no current legal mechanism for that. Emphasis on legal, of course.

It does make me wonder what they'd use for justification - prior to the current administration. The current administration would just use nationalism and protectionism, I'd think. I'm not sure how the previous administration would have framed it in order to make it politically feasible.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#280

Post by joe_the_user » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 9:42 PM UTC

Certhas wrote: post #117

chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

Alternative: Innovation happens within the context of Chinas censorship and political regime. Blocking of entrenched western competitors allows home grown solutions to spring up, and local technological know how to develop faster. Capitalism and innovation turn out to work within the context of an illiberal society just fine. Especially as China avoids the mistake of closing itself off to the rest of the world, but s…

An alternative to your alternative is the possibility that China is going to have to keep narrowing the area of permitted activity since the state has used this narrowing ie repression as a way to deal with existing structural problems without ending their root causes (problems ranging from credit imbalances to over-capacity in state-owned enterprises to growing inequality to corruption and beyond).

China two years ago or maybe China might permit enough market choice to allow basic innovation. But appetite of the repressive apparatus is not going to be sated and virtually all choices may wind-up being politicized. What happens when a well-connected individual asks you to invest-in/consult-for/etc their enterprise? What impact on your social credit might it have if you refuse?

It is fairly well established that secrecy and repression tends to breed corruption - when individuals have untouchable power, of course they'll want to leverage that for gain.