How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege? • Hacker News Board

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#71

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 4:48 PM UTC

Well, for one thing, getting married was something for everyone, including the poor. In Meg Keane's A Practical Wedding, there's a discussion about what weddings were like in the beginning of the 20th century. It turns out that what we consider a "normal" wedding was once the wedding only rich people could afford.

http://a.co/iC1AZMU

Back then, a wedding happened at church or city hall, and there was a simple stand-up reception at home. The Tappet Brothers warned to beware, "The Wedding Industrial Complex." A lot of the "traditions" around weddings are manufactured with the express purpose of getting more money out of you.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with a VP at my company about what happened to going out to the ball game. It used to be something democratizing, something even the poor could afford. Now, everything is jacked up in price, starting with the ticket, and the amount one would spend to take a family out could count as a major purchase. The same thing happened to the movies. I think capitalism is the best system we've come up with so far, but someone needs to realize that everyone needs an outlet, or else people will reject the system.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#72

Post by thriftwy » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 4:49 PM UTC

kop316 wrote: post #8

I wonder if this is also due to the high cost of the actual marriage ceremony. A (cheap) engagement ring can cost over $1000, and can easily jump to $5-10K. Then a traditional ceremony can easily be over $10K, with no upper bound on how expensive it is. This was the cause of me no longer being with an ex, they were already in debt $80k from school, but still wanted a ceremony that could have easily cost $40K. I had n…

> This was the cause of me no longer being with an ex,... but still wanted a ceremony that could have easily cost $40K.

This probably means that she valued having a ceremony more than she valued having you.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#73

Post by jgh » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 4:50 PM UTC

richardbenson wrote: post #49

Can HN stay politically neutral, please? Otherwise in two weeks every post will be about Trump, or how only whites can be racist, etc. Kill the cancer before it spreads.

HN is certainly not politically neutral and you can see that in action every time there's a post about sexual harassment or racism in the workplace.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#74

Post by moomin » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 4:50 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #25

19guid wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per CDC (2014), the marriage rate in the United States is 6.9/1000 people while the divorce rate is 3.2/1000 people. [1] I'd say that's very high. 1: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/marriage-divorce.htm

That's about 50%, which is the commonly quoted figure. However, IIRC that figure is skewed significantly by second (and further) marriages (i.e. by people who "like" getting divorced). The figures for first marriage are somewhat lower.

The interesting thing is that you can't actually divide one number by the other, because you don't know when the marriages began. What you actually need is the data "how many marriages in 1980/1981 &c end in divorce"? The information that a bunch of retired baby boomers are divorcing has little to no relevance to 30-somethings getting married right now.

In particular, since fewer people are getting married than used to (the whole point of the article), this is overstating the divorce rate.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#75

Post by rayiner » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 4:51 PM UTC

mlrtime wrote: post #3

Many men are understanding that marriage is a no win situation. You find yourself working your entire life to support your wife and family only to have a high percentage of ending in divorce. Your assets will be taken from you and you will be lucky if you get 50% custody. If you do not wand children there is no point in getting married.

From 1960 to 2011, the percentage of married women who earn more than their husbands went up from 6% to 24%. Among the demographic of people choosing whether or not to get married it's much higher--women in their 20s out earn men their age.

It would be paradoxical if marriage rates were declining because men don't want to commit to supporting a wife and family even as the amount of money women bring into the family unit is increasing. The correlation might even suggest the opposite: women do not see the need to get married because they no longer need men to support them.

(Also, even including the older generations, very little alimony is paid. Americans pay about $10 billion in alimony, almost all by men. But there are about 25 million divorced men in the country, resulting about $33 per month in alimony on average.)

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#76

Post by dpark » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 4:51 PM UTC

RijilV wrote: post #28

mlrtime wrote: post #3

Many men are understanding that marriage is a no win situation. You find yourself working your entire life to support your wife and family only to have a high percentage of ending in divorce. Your assets will be taken from you and you will be lucky if you get 50% custody. If you do not wand children there is no point in getting married.

Strongly disagree on "do not want children there is no point in getting married." There's an emotional reason to get married, formalizing a life long commitment. That's a big one for a lot of folks (citation: my marriage). But lets say you're not a feelings type of person, and those arguments fall on deaf ears. If you live in a community property state marriage makes inheriting assets ridiculously easy and avoids all…

> Filing jointly with a single income does wonders for what you don't have to pay.

Filing singly with a single income does even more assuming you have no dependents. Marrying someone with no income definitely doesn't result in a net increase in free cash flow. Taxes don't offset the cost of supporting an adult.

To be clear, I'm not opposed to marriage nor to the concept of a stay-at-home spouse (of either gender), but it's not a net gain financially if the spouse doesn't work. It's not a guaranteed net gain even in the case where both work.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#77

Post by 3minus1 » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 4:52 PM UTC

njharman wrote: post #24

> “Women don’t want to take a risk on somebody who’s not going to be able to provide anything,” That's such a fucked up sexist thought. It says woman are in control of marriage, what men want is irrelevant. And that the role of men is provider. Men belong at work and women belong in the kitchen, is that it?

It's not a sexist thought. It's an explanation for why marriage rates are lower among poor adults. Do you have a better explanation?

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#78

Post by tarsinge » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 4:54 PM UTC

mfoy_ wrote: post #7

To quote Alec Baldwin's character, Ellerby, from The Departed : "Marriage is an important part of getting ahead; lets people know you're not a homo. Married guy seems more stable. People see the ring, they think 'at least somebody can stand the son of a bitch'. Ladies see the ring, they know immediately you must have some cash or your cock must work." A touch on the homophobic and misogynistic side, but it seems rele…

Just seeming more stable is enough to increase trust from others (like many others signals, like a salesperson/bank employee is usually clean and well-dressed)

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#79

Post by anbende » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 4:54 PM UTC

justaman wrote: post #15

moomin wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to investigate the "high percentage" figure. It's one of those talking points that isn't really grounded in any solid numbers.

Its 40-50% marriages. However people who get remarried or married a second time are significantly more likely to get a divorce. Pretty damn high. Flip a coin. Whats really interesting is the number of sexual partners and how that relates to divorce rates. http://www.apa.org/topics/divorce/

Yes, but for educated people who have a reasonable income, it drops to 15-25% depending on your source.

There's also a growing body of research on practices and habits of healthy satisfying marriages. Raw average divorce rates don't really capture what's possible with forethought and discipline.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#80

Post by AndrewKemendo » Mon, Sep 25, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

mlrtime wrote: post #3

Many men are understanding that marriage is a no win situation. You find yourself working your entire life to support your wife and family only to have a high percentage of ending in divorce. Your assets will be taken from you and you will be lucky if you get 50% custody. If you do not wand children there is no point in getting married.

If you do not wan[t] children there is no point in getting married.

I'd argue that a marriage and children shouldn't be lumped together be default. You can raise children perfectly well without being (legally or common law) married.