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How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

nytimes.com

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Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#31

Post by nkrisc »

kop316 wrote: post #8

I wonder if this is also due to the high cost of the actual marriage ceremony. A (cheap) engagement ring can cost over $1000, and can easily jump to $5-10K. Then a traditional ceremony can easily be over $10K, with no upper bound on how expensive it is. This was the cause of me no longer being with an ex, they were already in debt $80k from school, but still wanted a ceremony that could have easily cost $40K. I had n…

This is an arbitrary and invented baseline. The actually baseline for a wedding is much closer to $0. My wife and I spent $60 for the license and paperwork, and we splurged about $500 for two plain, gold bands. I wonder what the correlation is for money spent on a wedding and divorce? I know I have my hunch of what it is.

EDIT: Saw your clarification. I totally agree. It is sort of a toxic expectation that can impact the marriage or someone's desire to get married, in my opinion.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#32

Post by jk563 »

CalRobert wrote: post #23
kop316 wrote: post #8

I wonder if this is also due to the high cost of the actual marriage ceremony. A (cheap) engagement ring can cost over $1000, and can easily jump to $5-10K. Then a traditional ceremony can easily be over $10K, with no upper bound on how expensive it is. This was the cause of me no longer being with an ex, they were already in debt $80k from school, but still wanted a ceremony that could have easily cost $40K. I had n…

Perhaps those are the weddings we focus on and we forget all the cheap ones? I've known quite a few people (myself included) who did it for a few hundred quid (turned out Tuesdays were cheaper so we did it then at town hall). Of course, it's cheaper if no family come. Remember, all those gifts they give you are a social debt for which they will want to collect.

> Remember, all those gifts they give you are a social debt for which they will want to collect.

I feel that is a bit of a sweeping statement. I certainly don't expect anything back for the gifts I've bought for friends and family for weddings, I would be shocked if I were a unique case.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#33

Post by glbrew »

kop316 wrote: post #8

I wonder if this is also due to the high cost of the actual marriage ceremony. A (cheap) engagement ring can cost over $1000, and can easily jump to $5-10K. Then a traditional ceremony can easily be over $10K, with no upper bound on how expensive it is. This was the cause of me no longer being with an ex, they were already in debt $80k from school, but still wanted a ceremony that could have easily cost $40K. I had n…

You're highly biased because those are the weddings you see. The average wedding cost is a very small fraction of these numbers. I know a number of people who could afford to throw large weddings but just had a ceremony in their backyards instead.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#34

Post by aetherson »

njharman wrote: post #24

> “Women don’t want to take a risk on somebody who’s not going to be able to provide anything,” That's such a fucked up sexist thought. It says woman are in control of marriage, what men want is irrelevant. And that the role of men is provider. Men belong at work and women belong in the kitchen, is that it?

If both parties' consent is necessary to get married (which, you know, I hope it is), then either can veto it.

If both parties need to provide in order to maintain a decent standard of living (which is the reality of America today), then either party can look at the other and say, "This person is not providing anything" and exercise their right to veto.

If women are more stably employed than men, on average, which is again the reality of lower-income areas, then it is women who will be dominantly in the part of the person judging and vetoing, without any sexism (except, I suppose, possibly on the part of the employers who make lower-income men less stably employed, though I don't think that sexism is the causal factor there).

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#35

Post by adekok »

thriftwy wrote: post #27
mlrtime wrote: post #3

Many men are understanding that marriage is a no win situation. You find yourself working your entire life to support your wife and family only to have a high percentage of ending in divorce. Your assets will be taken from you and you will be lucky if you get 50% custody. If you do not wand children there is no point in getting married.

> Your assets will be taken from you and you will be lucky if you get 50% custody This is an interesting situation from the point of how economy, politics and people work: If you protect X, you will get less X. If you protect women in marriage by giving them more assets and custody on divorce, you make it harder for women to find a spouse. Those who already had one, benefit. If you protect home renters by putting con…

If you protect mothers by giving them welfare, you get more single mothers.

If you give courts / child protection services a cut of the child support money, you get more divorces where the fathers are cut out of the children's lives.

If you punish men in divorces, financially ruin them ("imputed income"), and don't let them see their kids, you get a massive increase in male suicide after a divorce.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#36

Post by tomp »

njharman wrote: post #24

> “Women don’t want to take a risk on somebody who’s not going to be able to provide anything,” That's such a fucked up sexist thought. It says woman are in control of marriage, what men want is irrelevant. And that the role of men is provider. Men belong at work and women belong in the kitchen, is that it?

> Men belong at work and women belong in the kitchen, is that it?

No, it's just describing the reality that it matters to women how much a man earns. See the last graph in the second section of this article:

https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-big-lies-people-tell-in-onli...

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#37

Post by ashark »

njharman wrote: post #24

> “Women don’t want to take a risk on somebody who’s not going to be able to provide anything,” That's such a fucked up sexist thought. It says woman are in control of marriage, what men want is irrelevant. And that the role of men is provider. Men belong at work and women belong in the kitchen, is that it?

Article's full of that. Mostly it's about how all these now-unemployed and uneducated men aren't worth marrying. Which makes all the posts in this thread about how it's caused by men not wanting to marry women because it's too risky kinda funny. Article's all about too few men being marriage material.

They end on a hilariously useless and misguided piece of advice that wouldn't be out of place in The Onion's version of this article:

> Mr. Wilcox suggests a bigger emphasis in high schools and pop culture on what’s known as the success sequence: degree, job, marriage, baby. “The idea is that if people follow that sequence, their odds of landing in poverty are much lower,” he said.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#38

Post by hnaccy »

TACIXAT wrote: post #10
moomin wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to investigate the "high percentage" figure. It's one of those talking points that isn't really grounded in any solid numbers.

If anyone else doesn't want to investigate, this article puts it at 25%. [1] Some may consider that a high percentage. If this is a major concern though, my advice is to marry someone who you trust to not be horrible in the case of a divorce. It won't always work out that way, but at least you can have some confidence that they won't try to ruin your life just for fun. 1. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/heart-th…

>my advice is to marry someone who you trust to not be horrible in the case of a divorce

If people could accurately judge character they wouldn't be getting divorced.

Nobody enters a relationship thinking their partner will cheat yet it happens all the time.

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#39

Post by vlunkr »

mlrtime wrote: post #3

Many men are understanding that marriage is a no win situation. You find yourself working your entire life to support your wife and family only to have a high percentage of ending in divorce. Your assets will be taken from you and you will be lucky if you get 50% custody. If you do not wand children there is no point in getting married.

A high percent end in divorce, sure, but it's not like you're playing a slot machine. If you and your partner are committed you can more than likely beat the odds.

This is incredibly cynical. I'm pretty happy to work to support people that I love. It might be easier in some ways to be single, but it's not a "no win situation."

Re: How Did Marriage Become a Mark of Privilege?

#40

Post by shados »

kop316 wrote: post #8

I wonder if this is also due to the high cost of the actual marriage ceremony. A (cheap) engagement ring can cost over $1000, and can easily jump to $5-10K. Then a traditional ceremony can easily be over $10K, with no upper bound on how expensive it is. This was the cause of me no longer being with an ex, they were already in debt $80k from school, but still wanted a ceremony that could have easily cost $40K. I had n…

The social pressure there is off the chart. People don't have a wedding ceremony for themselves it feels like, they have it for everyone else.

When we got married, people tried to pressure us. "You have to have a big ceremony so you can invite X, Y, Z and their kid and their parent and their cousin and blah blah blah".

We put our foot down. We did it for ourselves. We had We just choose not to. People around us were pissed. Whatever.

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