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Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

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Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#41

Post by Blackthorn »

wallace_f wrote: post #38
Blackthorn wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of whiteness in America was invented to keep out groups that the in group did not like at the time; this goes back to the late 1700s. For example, Irish people for a long time were not considered white (now, of course, they are). Most European immigrants were originally not considered white and looked down upon.

What does the box on college, job, and other forms mean when it says race: "Black," "White," "Hispanic," etc?? So Whites select a social construct, while all others select a race? This is remarkably convoluted and confusing. Maybe I am just not smart enough to understand this.

American history can be quite convoluted and confusing. This book might help: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics...

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#42

Post by wallace_f »

Blackthorn wrote: post #41
wallace_f wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the box on college, job, and other forms mean when it says race: "Black," "White," "Hispanic," etc?? So Whites select a social construct, while all others select a race? This is remarkably convoluted and confusing. Maybe I am just not smart enough to understand this.

American history can be quite convoluted and confusing. This book might help: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics...

I do see a valid point to be made about historical racism and how the definitions of who is accepted into the acceptable category (what you call White) has changed over the years. What I don't understand is how White people are also not a race, but a social construct, which literally makes no sense.

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#43

Post by juvinious »

Blackthorn wrote: post #31
meri_dian wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colorblindness is the only way to live in a multicultural society. How does it ignore the experiences of 'black' people?

> Colorblindness is the only way to live in a multicultural society. No, it's not. > How does it ignore the experiences of 'black' people? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/26/do-not...

This form of cultural eugenics serves no ideal purpose to western society. What are the merits of basing everyone by the hue of their pigmentation? This is exactly the same position that individuals advocating bill C-16 in Canada so that people are forced to acknowledge others transient or sexual state. Again, these ideas only serve to segrate groups and will likely lead to create civil strife.

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#44

Post by Blackthorn »

wallace_f wrote: post #42
Blackthorn wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American history can be quite convoluted and confusing. This book might help: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics...

I do see a valid point to be made about historical racism and how the definitions of who is accepted into the acceptable category (what you call White) has changed over the years. What I don't understand is how White people are also not a race, but a social construct, which literally makes no sense.

The history of America, and of whiteness in America, is race. When whiteness has as an entire category changed to exclude undesirables and then include them when they were no longer as undesirable, it's hard to see whiteness as anything but the racist social construct that it has always been historically.

I personally estimate that in 100 years Hispanics are going to be considered white as they lose their undesirable status, just like happened to the Irish.

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#45

Post by Blackthorn »

juvinious wrote: post #43
Blackthorn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Colorblindness is the only way to live in a multicultural society. No, it's not. > How does it ignore the experiences of 'black' people? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/26/do-not...

This form of cultural eugenics serves no ideal purpose to western society. What are the merits of basing everyone by the hue of their pigmentation? This is exactly the same position that individuals advocating bill C-16 in Canada so that people are forced to acknowledge others transient or sexual state. Again, these ideas only serve to segrate groups and will likely lead to create civil strife.

> This form of cultural eugenics

Wow, that escalated quickly.

> What are the merits of basing everyone by the hue of their pigmentation?

This is a strawman; it's not what I'm advocating. What I am advocating is to recognize that black people have a different lived experience than white people. Colorblindness erases that.

> Again, these ideas only serve to segrate groups and will likely lead to create civil strife.

Like racism isn't causing civil strife right now?

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#46

Post by dmix »

Blackthorn wrote: post #33
dmix wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't seem to be making a cultural distinction here by calling it only "whiteness". A dynamic that both racists and rabid anti-racists so often ignore to their own detriment. Culture is the issue. And by bypassing that and focusing on race it instantly makes the conversation taboo and kills any progress through conversation and public discourse. This happens often in society and it's a shame, especially when cul…

I'm not certain I understand your objection. The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction made to exclude people that the in-group at the time didn't like, like Irish (who were not considered white until, gradually, they were). Where does culture enter into this?

> Where does culture enter into this?

For one you cite a phenomenon that was unique to a certain time/place (the irish).

> The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction

My objection is how this misses the forest for the trees. There's a weak correlation between some rednecks in appalachia who hate blacks and, say, the hiring behaviour of wealthy whites in business, or the politics driven out of middle-class America which push out ineffective criminal justice policy.

These need to be confronted on a culture-by-culture basis.

For example, just look at how so many people with honest concern about violence in ghettos often blame it on the black race, or because of the popularity of the former, non-racists who criticize it will get dismissed as merely being racists. But just because they are primarily black doesn't mean the problem is racial nor does it mean their race is entirely why they got into that position. There are plenty of non-black ghettos with high violence and low educations in many countries.

If you lump it all into a racial issue you will only get a huge push back as we see here in this thread. For good reasons too, it's as reductive and irrational as the racists or anti-semites.

You could get all social-science academia about it, but all cultures are partially social constructs. And pretending it's only a social construction is similarly reductive, there is more than enough resesrch on the genetic S culture.

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#47

Post by dmix »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #21

Perhaps we can also look at this in terms of power dynamics. It's possible many of the students are not as devoted to their cause as it may seem. Instead, the cause has given these students power, over administrators, and others. That power can be intoxicating. So the students will use any opportunity they can to exert power over others, and expand that power. I think Evergreen is worth examining through the lens of…

The book "Fools, Frauds, and Firebrands" has a recurring theme about how this obsession with viewing everything in the world through the lens of 'power' has resulted in misguided, irrational, and just plain wrong thinking. Often from otherwise smart people.

Power plays a role but it's only one of many. But reducing everything to that is a recipe for missing the big picture.

Foucault's work is one of the great examples of this. He loved to reduce complex systems with many competing motivations as merely the products of power.

https://www.amazon.com/Fools-Frauds-Firebrands-Thinkers-Left...

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#48

Post by Blackthorn »

dmix wrote: post #46
Blackthorn wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not certain I understand your objection. The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction made to exclude people that the in-group at the time didn't like, like Irish (who were not considered white until, gradually, they were). Where does culture enter into this?

> Where does culture enter into this? For one you cite a phenomenon that was unique to a certain time/place (the irish). > The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction My objection is how this misses the forest for the trees. There's a weak correlation between some rednecks in appalachia who hate blacks and, say, the hiring behaviour of wealthy whites in business, or the poli…

So, this whole thread started because people were freaking out over a college professor calling whiteness a racist concept, yes? I think we've been over how it has been exactly that historically. So what's the issue? Are we just in violent agreement here?

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#49

Post by meri_dian »

Blackthorn wrote: post #45
juvinious wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This form of cultural eugenics serves no ideal purpose to western society. What are the merits of basing everyone by the hue of their pigmentation? This is exactly the same position that individuals advocating bill C-16 in Canada so that people are forced to acknowledge others transient or sexual state. Again, these ideas only serve to segrate groups and will likely lead to create civil strife.

> This form of cultural eugenics Wow, that escalated quickly. > What are the merits of basing everyone by the hue of their pigmentation? This is a strawman; it's not what I'm advocating. What I am advocating is to recognize that black people have a different lived experience than white people. Colorblindness erases that. > Again, these ideas only serve to segrate groups and will likely lead to create civil strife. Li…

Everyone has a different lived experience than everyone else. If certain people are experiencing life in a negative way because of superficial characteristics, then we should advocate for a world where those superficial characteristics don't get in the way of our judgement of them: a colorblind world. You think that adopting a colorblind perspective ignores racism, but it is actually a solution to the problem of racism.

There are many problems in many communities (poor rural white, inner city black, etc.) that are caused by the actions of those in the communities themselves, rather than by oppressive outside forces. Attitude and behavioral change within those communities is necessary for any lasting improvement in the lived experience of it's members.

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#50

Post by dang »

meri_dian wrote: post #25
zenkat wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why flagged? Read the submission guidelines: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Ideological or political battle or talking points. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

"unless they're some interesting new phenomenon". This article is that.

It's probably neither interesting enough nor new enough to satisfy the community as a whole.
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