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Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

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Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#31

Post by Blackthorn »

meri_dian wrote: post #28
Blackthorn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any professor teaching anti-(any other race'ness') would be instantly a pariah and unable to keep a job. Whiteness isn't really a race, so that's not the same thing. In America, it's been a social construct whose members have shifted over the years. > I have a question. When I grew up I heard 'colorblindness' was a good thing. What happened to that? It appears we are going in the opposite direction. People started…

Colorblindness is the only way to live in a multicultural society. How does it ignore the experiences of 'black' people?

> Colorblindness is the only way to live in a multicultural society.

No, it's not.

> How does it ignore the experiences of 'black' people?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/26/do-not...

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#32

Post by dmix »

Blackthorn wrote: post #29
wallace_f wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I don't understand this. Consider the hypothetical courses: "the problem with Jewishness," or "the problem with Blackness." Are those at all acceptable? I am certain they are not! So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the same way that Blacks do?? Does that make sense?

> So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" You got the answer yourself: > I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the same way that Blacks do?? Does that make sense?

They don't seem to be making a cultural distinction here by calling it only "whiteness". A dynamic that both racists and rabid anti-racists so often ignore to their own detriment.

Culture is the issue. And by bypassing that and focusing on race it instantly makes the conversation taboo and kills any progress through conversation and public discourse.

This happens often in society and it's a shame, especially when cultural defects result in oppression or mass inter-community violence. These are serious problems that can't be addressed honestly.

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#33

Post by Blackthorn »

dmix wrote: post #32
Blackthorn wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" You got the answer yourself: > I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the same way that Blacks do?? Does that make sense?

They don't seem to be making a cultural distinction here by calling it only "whiteness". A dynamic that both racists and rabid anti-racists so often ignore to their own detriment. Culture is the issue. And by bypassing that and focusing on race it instantly makes the conversation taboo and kills any progress through conversation and public discourse. This happens often in society and it's a shame, especially when cul…

I'm not certain I understand your objection. The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction made to exclude people that the in-group at the time didn't like, like Irish (who were not considered white until, gradually, they were). Where does culture enter into this?

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#34

Post by wallace_f »

Blackthorn wrote: post #29
wallace_f wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I don't understand this. Consider the hypothetical courses: "the problem with Jewishness," or "the problem with Blackness." Are those at all acceptable? I am certain they are not! So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the same way that Blacks do?? Does that make sense?

> So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" You got the answer yourself: > I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the same way that Blacks do?? Does that make sense?

How are Whites not a race?

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#35

Post by Blackthorn »

wallace_f wrote: post #34
Blackthorn wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what is acceptable about "the problem with Whiteness?" You got the answer yourself: > I think you are saying that Whites do not constitute a race in the same way that Blacks do?? Does that make sense?

How are Whites not a race?

The concept of whiteness in America was invented to keep out groups that the in group did not like at the time; this goes back to the late 1700s. For example, Irish people for a long time were not considered white (now, of course, they are). Most European immigrants were originally not considered white and looked down upon.

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#36

Post by abiox »

Blackthorn wrote: post #33
dmix wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't seem to be making a cultural distinction here by calling it only "whiteness". A dynamic that both racists and rabid anti-racists so often ignore to their own detriment. Culture is the issue. And by bypassing that and focusing on race it instantly makes the conversation taboo and kills any progress through conversation and public discourse. This happens often in society and it's a shame, especially when cul…

I'm not certain I understand your objection. The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction made to exclude people that the in-group at the time didn't like, like Irish (who were not considered white until, gradually, they were). Where does culture enter into this?

i think irish being not-white (and a number of similar propositions) is either ahistorical or equivocating in some manner.

where irish ever required to use 'colored' restrooms? did anti-miscegenation laws outlaw 'white and irish' marriage or sexual relations?

consider that 'paddy wagon' is a term from irish association with policework in the 1800s... does it seem likely that 'white' citizens of that time would be content with 'non-whites' arresting them and carting them off to jail or court?

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#37

Post by meri_dian »

Blackthorn wrote: post #31
meri_dian wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colorblindness is the only way to live in a multicultural society. How does it ignore the experiences of 'black' people?

> Colorblindness is the only way to live in a multicultural society. No, it's not. > How does it ignore the experiences of 'black' people? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/26/do-not...

I don't think you understand the philosophy of colorblindness. We can't expect everyone to treat everyone else identically, but we can expect everyone to treat everyone else with respect.

Colorblindness advocates that while you may subconsciously classify people into different groups, you shouldn't let that classification get in the way of evaluating a person as an individual.

The problem with tribalism is that it doesn't allow me, someone trying to view another as an individual, to do so. It asserts that we can only view each other as faceless expressions of 'our' groups. This is counterproductive and the essential problem with identity politics.

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#38

Post by wallace_f »

Blackthorn wrote: post #35
wallace_f wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are Whites not a race?

The concept of whiteness in America was invented to keep out groups that the in group did not like at the time; this goes back to the late 1700s. For example, Irish people for a long time were not considered white (now, of course, they are). Most European immigrants were originally not considered white and looked down upon.

What does the box on college, job, and other forms mean when it says race: "Black," "White," "Hispanic," etc??

So Whites select a social construct, while all others select a race? This is remarkably convoluted and confusing. Maybe I am just not smart enough to understand this.

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#39

Post by abiox »

api wrote: post #9

Am I the only one who sees this stuff and the thinly veiled neo-Nazi ideology of the alt-right as two wings of the same movement? They operate as a kind of dialectic with the antics of both sides serving to strengthen the other. Under the hood they share the same intellectual foundation in biological determinism, identity politics, postmodernism, and anti-rationalism.

the 'alt-right' isn't composed wholly of white identity politics; however such people are clearly there. their boldness has been stoked by anti-white identity politics. between this willing visibility and an ad-dependent 24-7 news cycle hunting for eyeballs, some get the impression that this group is much larger than it is.

Re: Inside the Madness at Evergreen State

#40

Post by Blackthorn »

abiox wrote: post #36
Blackthorn wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not certain I understand your objection. The point is that whiteness in America isn't a race at all; it's a social construction made to exclude people that the in-group at the time didn't like, like Irish (who were not considered white until, gradually, they were). Where does culture enter into this?

i think irish being not-white (and a number of similar propositions) is either ahistorical or equivocating in some manner. where irish ever required to use 'colored' restrooms? did anti-miscegenation laws outlaw 'white and irish' marriage or sexual relations? consider that 'paddy wagon' is a term from irish association with policework in the 1800s... does it seem likely that 'white' citizens of that time would be con…

Well, I'd refer you to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Routledge-Classics...

You are free to disagree with the thesis, of course.

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