Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far • Hacker News Board

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#51

Post by KirinDave » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:50 PM UTC

deepnotderp wrote: post #39

KirinDave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional. And this…

> Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care No one does. Overall in the US, greater amounts are spent on/by women ( https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Sta... ). Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone (although searching up "feminist opposition to male birth control" brings up some interesting hits: https://www.google.com/sea…

> Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone

... What?

> female sterilizations aren't banned anywhere in the US either.

They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers.

> About sexual assault cases and lack of rights pertaining to due process, I would suggest that the evidence points to the opposite:

Thanks for providing a link to a broad survey of data and not a cherry picked article.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#52

Post by KirinDave » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:52 PM UTC

deepnotderp wrote: post #44

KirinDave wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is also unavailable in many places because the clinics that provide those services are associated with abortion. But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. Ostensibly, these cheaper tactics are frowned upon here and generally considered beneath the desired level of the discourse here.

> But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. I'm not sure it is. Your assertion was a central tenet of your argument. Abortion, although I totally agree with it being allowed, is admittedly a messy issue, and I can see why it's polarizing. Trying to frame that as an example for why women supposedly don't have equal rights is IMHO disingenuous.

No. My assertion is that women in many places simply cannot buy many types of health care because they're associated with reproductive needs.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#53

Post by reuleaux » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:52 PM UTC

thevardanian wrote: post #20

cwackerfuss wrote: post #3

It's sad to see men regressing at the idea of diversity in tech. It can't just be a boys club. The value in employment diversity is that we give people of all backgrounds a fair shot at opportunities. IMO it's actually a very complex issue strategically leveling the playing field. At Google, something like only 1 in 5 tech workers are female, and their diversity practices are fairly extreme compared to the norm. It's…

Slowly but surely we will realize that we are hitting a wall, and that no matter how far we push, or how much we incentivize, things will not change. The whole gender equality movement (and I do want to isolate this from all other identity movements) will eventually have to face the reality of women's choice, and what they choose perhaps will not be a satisfactory answer/direction the proponents of this ideology wish…

"Not to mention why isn't there a push for more women working trade jobs like construction, plumbing, underwater wielding, etc. that in itself betrays the entire "gender equality" narrative."

This same comment is made every single time there's a discussion of gender equality in tech, and when examined betrays the entire "anti gender equality" narrative.

People are in fact pushing for women in every single one of the fields you mentioned:

Construction: http://www.nawic.org/nawic/NFSFScholarships.asp

Plumbing: https://www.aspe.org/WOA

Welding: https://app.aws.org/foundation/scholarships/air_products

The next point that's brought up is "well then why aren't people pushing for more men in female dominated industries." To which the answer is, they are, and have been for a long time: http://www.aamn.org/about-us/scholarships

It seems fishy to me when people are willing to speak out against diversity in tech without bothering to research any part of their argument.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#54

Post by deepnotderp » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:52 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #51

deepnotderp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care No one does. Overall in the US, greater amounts are spent on/by women ( https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Sta... ). Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone (although searching up "feminist opposition to male birth control" brings up some interesting hits: https://www.google.com/sea…

> Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone ... What? > female sterilizations aren't banned anywhere in the US either. They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers. > About sexual assault cases and lack of rights perta…

> > Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone ... What?

They don't have the option of birth control, what's confusing about that?

> They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers.

As far as I understand such clinics are cut off from federal/state funding, in line with the Hyde amendment, and in only three states, right? I'm not sure how this qualifies as systematic oppression of women.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#55

Post by rainsford » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:53 PM UTC

PrimalDual wrote: post #21

So there are somethings I don’t quite understand about the pro-diversity argument. My understanding of the claim is that companies should want to have a diverse workforce because people of different backgrounds are fundamentally different. Different to the point that without inclusion of all their viewpoints you will fail to optimally solve some problems. It makes sense that if you don’t have enough women in tech you…

I'm not a huge fan of the utilitarian argument for diversity because it suggests the primary motivation should be the benefit to the employer and that the underrepresented group needs to provide EXTRA value over their over-represented peers to make it worth including them. To use your example, that women are only worth hiring if they can find opportunities their male counterparts can't. They don't just have to be equal, they have to be better.

I think a better argument for diversity is that people who are underrepresented in a job deserve the same opportunities as everyone else, not because they bring wise insights not otherwise attainable.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#56

Post by deepnotderp » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:56 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #52

deepnotderp wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. I'm not sure it is. Your assertion was a central tenet of your argument. Abortion, although I totally agree with it being allowed, is admittedly a messy issue, and I can see why it's polarizing. Trying to frame that as an example for why women supposedly don't have equal rights is IMHO disingenuous.

No. My assertion is that women in many places simply cannot buy many types of health care because they're associated with reproductive needs.

But I don't see any evidence of that. They can buy it, just not usually with federal funds.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#57

Post by BerislavLopac » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

jules wrote: post #36

BerislavLopac wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By definition, you can't have a meritocracy without having diversity. In a meritocracy, someone needs to determine the "merit", or at least define the rules which will determine it. And as long as that someone is human, the merit will be affected by their thoughts, emotions, beliefs and understanding of the world, which are in turn determined (or at the very least affected) by the world around them.

You do not need diversity to have a meritocracy in 100m sprint. Diversity may help to get closer to meritocracy in other fields, but in some fields the criteria are so difficult to determine that even with diversity it may be virtually impossible within a single company. The good news is that the market corrects this: the industry misjudging opens an opportunity for other companies to hire more effectively by judging…

> You do not need diversity to have a meritocracy in 100m sprint.

I'm not sure that Jesse Owens would agree with you.

The only reason why it seems that we don't is because there are rules which determine the winner, and those rules reflect the worldview of those who have set them. Even today the athletic sprint is not full "meritocracy", as women compete separate from men.

One more note: I've put the word meritocracy in quotes because 100m sprint has nothing to do with meritocracy. That term means that the most capable ones rule, while in athletics those with best results certainly don't rule, even if they reap other rewards.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#58

Post by KirinDave » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

deepnotderp wrote: post #54

KirinDave wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone ... What? > female sterilizations aren't banned anywhere in the US either. They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers. > About sexual assault cases and lack of rights perta…

> > Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone ... What? They don't have the option of birth control, what's confusing about that? > They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers. As far as I understand such clinics are…

A definitionally systematic defunding is proposed and you question if it is systematic or oppressive?

Okay.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#59

Post by KirinDave » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

deepnotderp wrote: post #56

KirinDave wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. My assertion is that women in many places simply cannot buy many types of health care because they're associated with reproductive needs.

But I don't see any evidence of that. They can buy it, just not usually with federal funds.

You should research this then. I've provided a link in other parts of this thread, please refer to it as the root.

Because I really question if you'd know simply by casually inspecting your surroundings.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#60

Post by deepnotderp » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 9:59 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #58

deepnotderp wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone ... What? They don't have the option of birth control, what's confusing about that? > They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers. As far as I understand such clinics are…

A definitionally systematic defunding is proposed and you question if it is systematic or oppressive? Okay.

And where do men get state funded birth control?