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Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

nytimes.com

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Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#41

Post by KirinDave »

gruez wrote: post #28
KirinDave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional. And this…

>Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care wait, what? >many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. oh. so by framing access to birth control/abortion as "health care", it's now a "health care" issue. that's a interesting way of grabbing attention. >We could also point to evidence that there is a practic…

> oh. so by framing access to birth control/abortion as "health care", it's now a "health care" issue. that's a interesting way of grabbing attention.

You could read the paragraph where I point out those drugs have other uses. Women with endomitriosis or PCOS need them and can't get them in many states, living in pain and increased mortality because of moral panic over health care.

But even ignoring that, managing when to have children IS a health issue for many women and for their unborn. For example, many women over 40 take birth control because they're concerned about increased rates of birth defects for children with mother's over 40.

Your attempt to frame a phenomenally complicated biological process as anything but a health issue is your politically informed opinion.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#42

Post by KirinDave »

nilkn wrote: post #27
KirinDave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional. And this…

A vasectomy should not be compared directly to an abortion. It should be compared to tubal ligation.

Which is also unavailable in many places because the clinics that provide those services are associated with abortion.

But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. Ostensibly, these cheaper tactics are frowned upon here and generally considered beneath the desired level of the discourse here.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#43

Post by thevardanian »

KirinDave wrote: post #17
deepnotderp wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and have equal rights I'm sorry, what human rights are women lacking now? EDIT: I should clarify, in western democracies and developed eastern countries

Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional. And this…

How does this have anything to do with the workplace? While I am with on women getting more reproductive attention, I just don't see how it's related. Women have all the rights in regards to getting a job, and advancing their careers.

Also I don't think hysterectomies/"getting the tubes tied" are illegal or even controversial, which would be a far more similar comparison to vasectomies.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#44

Post by deepnotderp »

KirinDave wrote: post #42
nilkn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A vasectomy should not be compared directly to an abortion. It should be compared to tubal ligation.

Which is also unavailable in many places because the clinics that provide those services are associated with abortion. But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. Ostensibly, these cheaper tactics are frowned upon here and generally considered beneath the desired level of the discourse here.

> But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it.

I'm not sure it is. Your assertion was a central tenet of your argument. Abortion, although I totally agree with it being allowed, is admittedly a messy issue, and I can see why it's polarizing. Trying to frame that as an example for why women supposedly don't have equal rights is IMHO disingenuous.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#45

Post by KirinDave »

jules wrote: post #34
KirinDave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional. And this…

Which localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain hormonal birth control but have unchallenged access to vasectomies?

A great deal of information and links to many credible stories is available here. The efforts are systemic:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/states-fighting-womens-a...

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#46

Post by RoboticWater »

PrimalDual wrote: post #21

So there are somethings I don’t quite understand about the pro-diversity argument. My understanding of the claim is that companies should want to have a diverse workforce because people of different backgrounds are fundamentally different. Different to the point that without inclusion of all their viewpoints you will fail to optimally solve some problems. It makes sense that if you don’t have enough women in tech you…

The argument is two-pronged (probably more, but let's restrict it to two): firstly, yes, that diversity can improve gains, but secondly that the current skewed proportions were created by both active and passive discrimination which, to some extent, still exists today (though mainly in the passive form). Considering it from a purely utilitarian perspective doesn't quite do the issue enough justice.

It's essentially a moral argument: women and minorities deserve equal treatment and opportunity, but due to stereotyping and social inertia (i.e. girls don't grow up seeing many women in technical fields, so they aren't compelled or don't even think to join them), they don't currently get it.

To answer the question:

> Still, if women, men and people of different ethnicities and races all have such fundamentally different backgrounds, why would you expect them all to choose the same fields in the same proportion?

I think we'd like to assume that everyone can essentially do whatever they want, but just choose not to, but we simply can't because we've never had an equal starting position to begin with.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#47

Post by jules »

KirinDave wrote: post #45
jules wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain hormonal birth control but have unchallenged access to vasectomies?

A great deal of information and links to many credible stories is available here. The efforts are systemic: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/states-fighting-womens-a...

That article is about taxpayer funded health care. Are vasectomies taxpayer funded in these places?

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#48

Post by deepnotderp »

KirinDave wrote: post #45
jules wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain hormonal birth control but have unchallenged access to vasectomies?

A great deal of information and links to many credible stories is available here. The efforts are systemic: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/states-fighting-womens-a...

Your link only shows three states, and all of them cut off state/federal funding to institutions providing abortions. This seems like it would be in line with the Hyde amendment. Why is this now somehow an infringement of rights?

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#49

Post by KirinDave »

thevardanian wrote: post #43
KirinDave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care. If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional. And this…

How does this have anything to do with the workplace? While I am with on women getting more reproductive attention, I just don't see how it's related. Women have all the rights in regards to getting a job, and advancing their careers. Also I don't think hysterectomies/"getting the tubes tied" are illegal or even controversial, which would be a far more similar comparison to vasectomies.

Why is this question directed at me? I'm answering a question.

But to answer your question, horrible maternity and paternity leave policies come to mind.

Re: Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone Too Far

#50

Post by Klockan »

grondilu wrote: post #24

Today on HN I've learnt about KaTeX, a math typesetting system for the web[1]. As I looked into it, I was intrigued by the names of the two authors, which suggested they are females. That looked odd to me, as I thought typically this kind of project is made by men. The last time I had this kind of surprise was with Audrey Tang, the developer of Pugs, an early Perl 6 implementation. Turned out she was not born female.…

I have noticed this as well, in competitive gaming among female prize money earners 2 of the top 3 are trans (Scarlett and Ricki Ortiz).

https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/female_players

I would expect that trans women are actually more targeted and discriminated against than normal women so this result is strange.

Here is the list including both genders as a comparison for the interested, only Scarlett is on that list and she is on position 316 which seems more reasonable given how rare trans persons are:

https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/highest-overall

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