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Some Excel users pop F1 off their keyboards (2012)

businessinsider.com

201–210 of 219 posts

Re: Some Excel users pop F1 off their keyboards (2012)

#201
post #141

Okay for those that do not get it. 1. It’s a bank. 2. Banks lock down their computers. 3. So you cannot install other software to fix this in software. 4. You do not have access to the system low enough to rename / remove the winhelp.exe crap. 5. No 3rd party hardware is allowed in the bank. So no bringing your own keyboard. All the time we get into this threads on HN where the techie goes well you could just...bla b…

The greater point is that if you put something really useful next to something really annoying it will exacerbate the issue. F1 should not be so bad, and it should not be so close to F2. Even just leaving alone how bad , and utterly useless, the help dialogues in Windows are it's just terrible UX design. It would be like having a "eject engine block" button next to the "start car" button. One day you're going to hit…

With several versions of windows, I learned to hate how close Help was to Run on the start menu. You're about to run cmd or some specific program, and then next thing you know, your computer is crawling to a halt while it attempts to bring up and display the help ui.

Solvable with keyboard shortcuts or creating a shortcut to cmd somewhere else, but still happened enough to be infuriating. In most cases, it was when I was doing work on someone else's computer.

Re: Some Excel users pop F1 off their keyboards (2012)

#202
post #30

I wish I could remove "F1" from Chrome: I'm in the middle of a lot of tabs, reading them after each other and accidentially pressing F1 instead of ESC and a new useless help tab obens on the far right. Luckily if I close it immediately without navigating, Chrome is clever enough to return me to the last tab

On what OS does Chrome do anything when you press F1 or Esc? On my Mac, neither seems to do anything.

Re: Some Excel users pop F1 off their keyboards (2012)

#203
post #141

Okay for those that do not get it. 1. It’s a bank. 2. Banks lock down their computers. 3. So you cannot install other software to fix this in software. 4. You do not have access to the system low enough to rename / remove the winhelp.exe crap. 5. No 3rd party hardware is allowed in the bank. So no bringing your own keyboard. All the time we get into this threads on HN where the techie goes well you could just...bla b…

The greater point is that if you put something really useful next to something really annoying it will exacerbate the issue. F1 should not be so bad, and it should not be so close to F2. Even just leaving alone how bad , and utterly useless, the help dialogues in Windows are it's just terrible UX design. It would be like having a "eject engine block" button next to the "start car" button. One day you're going to hit…

My favourite example of this is from the Apollo command module. Margaret Hamilton (one of the programmers) had her daughter in the simulator and let her play around. She managed to crash the simulator by launching a certain programme midflight. Margaret wanted to stop this from being possible, but was overruled because astronauts don't make mistakes. Eventually one of the astronauts made that exact mistake during the Apollo 8 flight.

Source: https://www.wired.com/2015/10/margaret-hamilton-nasa-apollo/

Re: Some Excel users pop F1 off their keyboards (2012)

#204

Windows help and Windows troubeshooter are among the two most useless things in the OS (and lately it's Cortana). It far easier and more relevant to just do a Google search than waste time with these things. Same goes for answers.microsoft.com, whenever i see that link on top og Google results I'm pretty sure I'll just waste 10 minutes of my life and then search for the same thing on Stackexchange and pray to god som…

I really don't understand how a company as big as Microsoft allows something like answers.microsoft.com to exist.

Despite for some reason having very good SEO, searches that land you there nearly always involve the same pattern. An MVP restates the question. Then they suggest running an irrelevant command, such as "sfc /scannow". Then when it doesn't help they suggest taking the issue somewhere else. It's not hyperbolic to suggest you could replace hundreds of MVPs with a bot and noone would notice.

The lack of moderation means common searches land you on threads - on a Microsoft subdomain - full of nothing but bagging out Microsoft and swearing at the state of things.

I mean I get that for a resources constrained company it can be hard to do better, and I wouldn't fault small businesses. But given this shows up for just about every Google search relating to Microsoft, you'd think there'd be marketing value in fixing it.

Re: Some Excel users pop F1 off their keyboards (2012)

#205
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed — overwrite mode is something I basically never want and am always unhappily surprised to find it's switched on. That's one of the things I like about using C-a, C-e, M-v & C-v, C-d instead of home, end, pgup, pgdn & Del — much less likely to accidentally hit the wrong key. And my hands don't have to fly so far from my keyboard!

Overwrite mode is basically a relic from the old fixed-width record days. We just need to think up a better use for the Insert key so people don't fall back on making it the overwrite toggle. Maybe in a word processor it could bring up the "put a picture/graph/whatever" right here in this document?

But do you really need a dedicated key for that? Might as well just get rid of insert.

Re: Some Excel users pop F1 off their keyboards (2012)

#206
post #53

When I was younger and played games, popping out the windows key was typical. At best triggering windows menu meant lost round, but more typically a crashed game or even crashed Windows. Even today I'm wary of task switching from a game, as it still doesn't seem to be entirely robust

I haven't hosed a windows session yet, and maybe just one game was crashy ever, while task switching for the last two decades. I ran Windows Server though typically.

I remember this not-so-fondly. This wouldn't be a problem for a game that is composited alongside the desktop in a "Windowed" mode, but for a full-screen application it is an "exclusive" application. The Source engine handles this context switch absolutely terribly. Task-switching out of Team Fortress 2 is a stuttery mess, where for around ten seconds it'll just loop the tiny audio buffer it last filled on top of a black screen before anything is usable again.

Re: Some Excel users pop F1 off their keyboards (2012)

#207
Whoa, I briefly worked on a project related to this, over in Redmond, like 20 years ago (ya I'm an oldie). So weird to see this being talked about in 2017, based on an article from 2012!?!

My background is in banking, here is some additional info on the F1 key thing in case anyone is interested in this random odd topic:

The article is not exactly wrong but it's misleading (more on that later). Yes the F1 key opens the Excel Help Window. Removing the F1 key is NOT a common practice among bankers.

The origin, or one of the origins, of removing the F1 key as seen in this article, comes from how banks used to train their new interns and first year employees to use Excel. The first few weeks on the job at a Wall St bank were spent in a little training course and the training course was allowed to have a bit more "fun" than the real more professional side of the job soon to come for these rookies.

It was important to teach new banking analysts to be very efficient in Excel, this meant requiring them to memorize how to use the features of Excel without needing to look it up in the Help Menu AND training them to use keyboard shortcuts not the mouse, as keyboard shortcuts are faster. What this led to was some Wall St banks in their training class would have a little fun in training and tell new analysts/students to unplug the mouse from the computer (so you have to learn the keyboard shortcuts) and tell them to remove the F1 key (so they can't just look up how to do something that they should have memorized).

Of course, these training aid tactics of silliness were only relevant for the first few weeks on the job. As new analysts would very soon start learning all about macros and VBA in the second half of the training course. The F1 key can easily and quickly be disabled in a number of ways in the VBA editor of Excel [1] and the idea that a bunch of bankers are removing the F1 key from the keyboard so they don't accidentally press it while reaching for F2 as this article describes is frankly ridiculous. Everyone uses macros and if F1 is disabled it is coded not physically removed, more than likely the help menu has been remapped to a multi-key shortcut just in case.

To those comments who say this is banking and the computers are locked down to the point you cannot install other software or make changes to current software, this is partly true but this does not extend to blocking employees from macros and VBA in Excel. Using and writing Excel macros is crucial to the job and it is expected to be utilized. I have never seen a bank where access to macros and VBA is blocked.

Now, it is possible to go to a bank and see someone has removed their F1 key from their keyboard. But it is not a common practice. IF you do see an F1 key removed it usually is because either: (1) the person removed the F1 key during training and then lost it or just never replaced it. (2) They are a brand new employee still in training (though less likely because training has changed in recent years and fun is not allowed anymore). (3) They were told incorrectly by a frat buddy or other "wall street bro" that removing the F1 is cool and sign of being an Excel ninja wizard. Reason 3 is sadly the most likely reason and if you read the article you will see they only spoke to and interviewed banking analysts, i.e. brand new rookie employees, not real investment bankers who have been on the job more than a few months and are out of the analyst phase.

If I saw an F1 key removed at a bank keyboard I would judge that person a little as it would not reflect very well on an experienced banking employee - unless that person was on one of the tech teams in which case they can do what they want and many have their own keyboards (which are loud guys) and I wouldn't question their computer knowledge skills. The main reason not to permanently remove the F1 key after training is because other important finance software (like Bloomberg) needs the F1 key for other functions (in fact the bloomberg terminal official keyboard moved the help key to its own different button and its on a different row from the F1-F12 keys).

Also, having worked at Microsoft very briefly I think I can say Microsoft is aware of the issue of the F1 key Help Menu bothering some users where it is located and how slow the Help Menu can be. Back in 90s they used to talk to their customers and power users all the time and it's likely they still do today, in addition the telemetry they snatch from everyone these days. They know, they aren't changing it.

Lastly, while this was a mild case of an outdated and misleading article with a clickbait headline, business insider is usually much worse and I would just like to recommend that business insider be considered a fake news site and spam and blocked from Hacker News. Just a suggestion. Thank you.

Re: Some Excel users pop F1 off their keyboards (2012)

#208
post #122

This may be 90% cargo culting, 10% reality. One of my former co-workers desperately wanted to be perceived as an Excel ninja, and had heard that people who had achieved guru-level Excel mastery would remove their F1 keys, and so one day pried off her F1 key. Meanwhile the person in our office who probably could have written Minecraft in Excel and then built an Excel simulator in Excel Minecraft had a keyboard with a…

This is spot on. My comment on this thread tried to give some background on how the cargo cult part. The experienced Excel users I know also keep the F1 key right on the keyboard and remap it.

Re: Some Excel users pop F1 off their keyboards (2012)

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you're kidding right? I have never once found an answer in an F1 help in a Microsoft product. And I've been using Windows since 3.0. On a somewhat related note: Before wiki's, google, and stackoverflow became the norm, I used to love downloading CHM (compiled help files) references for HTML 3.x, Javascript, C/C++, and more.

Way back in the day, the help documentation shipped with MSDOS really helped me out. IIRC it had a colored text-graphical interface that let you look at all the commands and what they could do. Really helped out a young kid figure out how to write autoexec.bat/config.sys files so that his games could run. Being able to write menus so I could customize my setup for each game was so amazing . With the advent of the int…

'stagnates'. ha. what an euphemism.

Re: Some Excel users pop F1 off their keyboards (2012)

#210
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one thing that boggles me about the firefox dev team is their continuing refusal to add a "disable ctrl-Q" setting. it's right next to ctrl-W and in my firefox using days i accidentally hit it a ton of times.

You might like one of the add-ons that disable Ctrl-Q.

There used to be one such Firefox addon that even made it into the Debian (Wheezy/Jessie) repositories. Unfortunately it was written for the old plugin system and never updated and is now designated as blocking the new Firefox multiprocessing, so I already started looking into Firefox addon programming just to replace it. Somehow I never thought about looking for newer alternatives in the official addon store, where several modern ones seem to exist already, so I'd like to thank you a lot for your suggestion.
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