Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you • Hacker News Board

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#41

Post by AgentME » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 4:04 AM UTC

omarchowdhury wrote: post #40

AgentME wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Focus your time and energy on BTC, ETH and an anonymous coin like XMR. Any other offering should be met with skepticism. To elaborate/explain on this point for those less familiar: those three cryptocurrencies actually are based on real technical innovation, and have developer communities producing more technical innovation. There are many other cryptocurrencies that have zero technical innovation (or completely non…

Technical innovation is not the only type of innovation happening in the crypto space. There are tokens being developed whose innovations are financial, social, political, and economic. Don't assume technical innovation is the end all be all, Ethereum's technical innovation allows for the other types of innovation to occur, for example. To strengthen my argument, you wouldn't expect every startup on the Internet to d…

I don't exactly disagree; I think there are some ICOs that are promising. (And I'm happy that many are being built on top of a pre-existing blockchain like Ethereum's rather than pretending they're secure without a large group of miners securing their blockchain.)

Maybe I should drop the word "technical": There are many projects out there with no real innovation whatsoever that were created only to facilitate pump-and-dumps rather than to enable some kind of innovation.

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#42

Post by nikcub » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 4:09 AM UTC

patryn20 wrote: post #36

wslh wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is still no legitimate use of bitcoin beyond niche markets and speculation You are making me laugh about your ignorance, sorry for my pedantry but... if my company in Argentina receives an international wire transfer from a customer in my HSBC account, it will be less money than if I receive the Bitcoins and exchange it via https://bitex.la/ , and deposit it to the same HSBC account. Both process follow all t…

> Besides maybe a very risky (as in unpredictable value on delivery) method of money transfer. Cherry picking is fun. Did you transfer money last week? If it had been bitcoin and had been at the wrong time, you would have received less than you asked for. Bitcoin is a speculative security like product, not currency. The power of the bank transfer is that you can predict what you will receive.

Currency pairs have the same counterparty and volatility risk - it is solved with hedges and other derivatives

There is nothing inherent in bitcoin to differentiate it from other currencies that doesn’t allow the same derivative infrastructure to be built out and offered (it already is)

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#43

Post by nikcub » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 4:12 AM UTC

patryn20 wrote: post #39

woogiewonka wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transferwise is pretty friendly and uses real exchange rate + reasonable fees Usually around 1% or less. With Bitcoin, I can send the same transfer for 0.03% - which puts Transferwise to shame and makes PayPal look like an absurd joke. Granted there's much more involved with current volatility of bitcoin but once that gets more stable all of the other options will be a total joke. People who cant't understand the fut…

This is based on the assumption that bitcoin will stabilize. I think bitcoin is a flawed first mover. The winner (and future stable cryptocurrency) likely hasn't been invented yet. But I imagine it's mathematic properties will allows for a sustainable transaction rate (i.e.: thousands per second), short (as in sub 2-3 second) final confirmation times, and the ability to execute Ethereum like smart contracts without m…

Bitcoin has Lightning with non-Turing complete smart contracts which offer better security

Ethereum has plasma and raiden with touring complete smart contracts

Pick one and build on it - there is no need to rip out the underlying blockchain to achieve what you’re outlining - it exists today

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#44

Post by aianus » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 4:12 AM UTC

goatsi wrote: post #4

I'm not sure what the author wants bitcoin to be. They are correct in pointing out the various scams that litter bitcoin, but they also seem to want to shut out crime (silkroad et al) with better analysis tools and centralization. Without the various scams pumping the price criminals are the only ones who would be using bitcoin, as they are locked out of the much simpler & easier to use alternatives that any normal p…

Actually there are quite a few legal applications that are well-served by irreversible internet cash.

Things like porn, sex toys, gambling in many jurisdictions, selling expensive items like gold bars or cash online, selling cross-border to sketchy areas like Nigeria or Romania, etc.

Traditional reversible payment methods are very expensive or unavailable for these applications because the chargeback rates are off the charts.

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#45

Post by throwaway2048 » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 4:12 AM UTC

nikcub wrote: post #42

patryn20 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Besides maybe a very risky (as in unpredictable value on delivery) method of money transfer. Cherry picking is fun. Did you transfer money last week? If it had been bitcoin and had been at the wrong time, you would have received less than you asked for. Bitcoin is a speculative security like product, not currency. The power of the bank transfer is that you can predict what you will receive.

Currency pairs have the same counterparty and volatility risk - it is solved with hedges and other derivatives There is nothing inherent in bitcoin to differentiate it from other currencies that doesn’t allow the same derivative infrastructure to be built out and offered (it already is)

not many currency pairs swing in value by 50% any given week

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#46

Post by lhl » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 4:13 AM UTC

lojack wrote: post #38

johndevor wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the main argument for ltc?

More decentralization because you don't essentially need a special purpose FPGA (or whatever is popular these days) specifically meant for mining coins, as these special purpose machines are typically more centralized in larger farms. I'm not familiar enough with LTC to say if this will continue for the future, but thats the standard argument in favor.

If this is your main reasoning argument for Litecoin, then I have bad news for you, as you're completely wrong. Litecoin's PoW algorithm uses Scrypt and is second only to Bitcoin's SHA256 as far as ASIC-based mining goes. This has been the case for 3 years now and at this point Scrypt ASICs are hashing between 100-200X more efficient both on a $/H and W/H basis vs GPUs.

(Anyone with a passing familiarity w/ CCs would know this, but still, it feels like statements that are so blatantly counterfactual should probably be noted.)

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#47

Post by physguy1123 » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 4:17 AM UTC

drcode wrote: post #15

verroq wrote: post #7

What about blantant market manipulation? https://hackernoon.com/meet-spoofy-how-a-single-entity-domin...

Well, there is undeniably spoofing and wash trading in these markets, I see both happen all the time- I'm not sure though why they are considered a bad thing: They obfuscate the order books, making it easier for other buyers/sellers to make trades without broadcasting their overall position to other traders. I'd love to hear a good argument why these things are a "bad thing" besides just the argument that "it's wrong…

Disclaimer - this is using equities markets as the example.

Spoofing is bad for a lot of reasons. It's bad for retail investors who buy(sell) into a position when it's been spoofed high(low) believing the order book is real. It's bad for market makers who must widen their spread and/or add less liquidity since information in the order book isn't real. It's bad when a spoofed price wrongly activates a bunch of stop orders. It's bad when somebody exits a position wrongly believing that a different party has an informational advantage over them. It's just blatant market manipulation that benefits only the spoofers.

If a company released false earnings reports or somebody released fake information about a company to change the price, people would be up in arms, you would never hear anybody making your argument. I don't see how manipulating an order book is that different. The book is a fundamental part of how companies are valued since it's how people speculate on future value, act on informational advantages, hedge, and it's how that information itself is disseminated).

Maybe the bitcoin markets are different enough from equities that the effects of spoofing aren't that bad (already super volatile, no outside information other than price speculation, no latency arbitrage). But I would need to see some really strong arguments to that effect to convince me of that.

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#48

Post by aianus » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 4:19 AM UTC

patryn20 wrote: post #36

wslh wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is still no legitimate use of bitcoin beyond niche markets and speculation You are making me laugh about your ignorance, sorry for my pedantry but... if my company in Argentina receives an international wire transfer from a customer in my HSBC account, it will be less money than if I receive the Bitcoins and exchange it via https://bitex.la/ , and deposit it to the same HSBC account. Both process follow all t…

> Besides maybe a very risky (as in unpredictable value on delivery) method of money transfer. Cherry picking is fun. Did you transfer money last week? If it had been bitcoin and had been at the wrong time, you would have received less than you asked for. Bitcoin is a speculative security like product, not currency. The power of the bank transfer is that you can predict what you will receive.

I've done this all personally many times and it is the cheapest way to exchange a couple thousand dollars worth of fiat cross-border (I usually made a profit, even).

You have to hold bitcoin on the destination exchange and then buy and sell in the US and on the foreign exchange simultaneously. If you're worried about the price risk for the bitcoin you're holding, you can open a corresponding short position to hedge.

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#49

Post by nikcub » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 4:25 AM UTC

throwaway2048 wrote: post #45

nikcub wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currency pairs have the same counterparty and volatility risk - it is solved with hedges and other derivatives There is nothing inherent in bitcoin to differentiate it from other currencies that doesn’t allow the same derivative infrastructure to be built out and offered (it already is)

not many currency pairs swing in value by 50% any given week

yet I can buy a hedge today with a consumer market account in two clicks for a dozen currencies

There are plenty of countries with volatile or straight out hyperflating currencies that still manage to trade with the world

Wall St and finance market is 8% of GDP - this is what they do

Re: Things cryptocurrency enthusiasts probably won't tell you

#50

Post by wslh » Sat, Sep 23, 2017, 4:34 AM UTC

patryn20 wrote: post #36

wslh wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is still no legitimate use of bitcoin beyond niche markets and speculation You are making me laugh about your ignorance, sorry for my pedantry but... if my company in Argentina receives an international wire transfer from a customer in my HSBC account, it will be less money than if I receive the Bitcoins and exchange it via https://bitex.la/ , and deposit it to the same HSBC account. Both process follow all t…

> Besides maybe a very risky (as in unpredictable value on delivery) method of money transfer. Cherry picking is fun. Did you transfer money last week? If it had been bitcoin and had been at the wrong time, you would have received less than you asked for. Bitcoin is a speculative security like product, not currency. The power of the bank transfer is that you can predict what you will receive.

> Did you transfer money last week?

No, I can choose when I trade since I don't have any cashflow issue.