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Bitcoin is fiat money, too

economist.com

61–70 of 355 posts

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#61

Interestingly the economist misses the traditional definition of Fiat: a currency whose value is determined by the Fiat of a state. Whether or not Bitcoin exhibits similar trends as currency that isn't backed by the state is immaterial to the ethical appeal (to some) of a medium of exchange where participation is voluntary and consensual.

Will it still be voluntary and consensual if the day comes where stores post signs: "Payment accepted in bitcoin only"?

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#62
post #3

ICOs are the hyper speculative .com penny stocks of this particular economic cycle/bubble. A few may rise from the ashes of an eventual burst, and the general idea may be have some validity to it, but most cryptocurrencies are a sham and are going nowhere.

That's true for startups too (admittedly the ratio is probably less stark)

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#63
This isnt directly related to the article, but I have two questions about ICO coins I was hoping someone here could answer. I read that recently a group raised millions of dollars in less than a minute to fund the creation of a new web browser.

1. How are coins valued when the underlying company is building a product it will never be able to, or never intends to monetize (eg if Wikipedia had an ICO).

2. If another company acquires this browser company, what happens to the coins?

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#64
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogecoin was created explicitly to have a low value suitable for micropayments & tipping. It hasn't really worked out much better for Dogecoin...interest in it seems to have waned a long time ago. My bet is that it hasn't caught on as a medium of exchange simply because that's not really a major pain point. Cryptocurrency's competition as payment isn't $USD; it's Visa, Mastercard, Discover, Stripe, Square, and other…

I think dogecoin failed to go anywhere at least partly because it was a literal memecoin. Certainly made it hard for me to take it seriously as a semi-layman at the time.

Interestingly that would seem to further the author's point a bit. You didn't think dogecoin was legitimate because it was named after a meme. So that made you less likely to trust the code/governance?

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#65
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's funny, I don't remember consulting my government this morning when I paid for a cup of coffee with cash

You must live in: Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire or Oregon. (Or be oblivious) States where the sale of a cup of coffee doesn't involve a tax.

Tax just tracks that the transaction occurred, it doesn't track who's doing the transaction.

But if you don't like even that much, then replace "cup of coffee" with "lemonade from a neighborhood lemonade stand".

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if part of this is due to dust. My understanding is that at these prices you don't really want to split a coin for a $.25. As a result it's poor for micro payments and daily macro payments alike.

Dogecoin was created explicitly to have a low value suitable for micropayments & tipping. It hasn't really worked out much better for Dogecoin...interest in it seems to have waned a long time ago. My bet is that it hasn't caught on as a medium of exchange simply because that's not really a major pain point. Cryptocurrency's competition as payment isn't $USD; it's Visa, Mastercard, Discover, Stripe, Square, and other…

Dogecoin is for fun. Much block-chain. Wow.

It died off because _some people_ tried to turn it into a real thing for micro transactions, etc.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#67
post #54

How does Bitcoin work offline? Let's say the world goes to hell (assume internet has been taken offline) and we need to trade using a form of trusted currency. Just curious...

It doesn't work at all without the peer network. However, you might be able to construct an "IOU" of sorts by creating a signed transaction offline, to be fed to the network later. (I'm not 100% sure whether anti-replay features make this impractical.)

Offline signing is common, so theoretically you could print the transactions and private-key to the account/utxo on paper and use them as physical promissory/bearer notes.

Unfortunately though, it's the network that verifies the absence of double spends, so there's no guarantee of uniqueness.

With the no internet, and limited interbank settlement, I would still bet on the value of crypto over the fiat inflation that would be used to facilitate credit-worthiness.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#68

This isnt directly related to the article, but I have two questions about ICO coins I was hoping someone here could answer. I read that recently a group raised millions of dollars in less than a minute to fund the creation of a new web browser. 1. How are coins valued when the underlying company is building a product it will never be able to, or never intends to monetize (eg if Wikipedia had an ICO). 2. If another co…

The coins themselves are valued based on what people are willing to pay for them. In contrast, when a story claims "a company raised millions of dollars" it is typically talking about the currency Ether that was PAID to the company in exchange for the tokens. That is also worth what people are willing to pay for it, but because Ether has been around longer it has more of an established value.

If the company is acquired, a number of things could happen. It's important to note that for the most part, the company doesn't control the coins. They simply publish a contract that provides for the tokens to function, but normally the administrative capacities of such a contract are limited once the sale is over. When administrative capacities do exist, they are typically controlled by one or more people controlling a particular private key. The owner of that private key will have control of the contract, so in order for a company transfer to transfer control, that private key would have to also transfer. (they'd probably want to redeploy the contract under a different key anyways since there would be no guarantee the old owner didn't still have a copy of the old key.)

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#69
post #54

How does Bitcoin work offline? Let's say the world goes to hell (assume internet has been taken offline) and we need to trade using a form of trusted currency. Just curious...

It doesn't work at all without the peer network. However, you might be able to construct an "IOU" of sorts by creating a signed transaction offline, to be fed to the network later. (I'm not 100% sure whether anti-replay features make this impractical.)

> However, you might be able to construct an "IOU" of sorts by creating a signed transaction offline, to be fed to the network later.

And if you grant the holder of that IOU the sole right to print and distribute notes representing subdivisions of that debt, you’ll find yourself back at cash!

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#70
post #57

Interestingly the economist misses the traditional definition of Fiat: a currency whose value is determined by the Fiat of a state. Whether or not Bitcoin exhibits similar trends as currency that isn't backed by the state is immaterial to the ethical appeal (to some) of a medium of exchange where participation is voluntary and consensual.

"Code is governance" -- the article does support the idea of cryptocurrency as fiat money because the laws, in this case, are the code. The developers and miners, no matter their good intentions, do hold power over the currency that everyday investors do not have. No matter how egalitarian the distributed ledger set up looks on paper, we'd be remiss to think the power structures behind cryptocurrencies are so radical…

Ethereum's upcoming Proof of Stake mechanism is supposed to put more power into the hands of investors compared to miners.
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