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Basic Income Research Proposal

basicincome.ycr.org

401–410 of 427 posts

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#401
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have to look at the effect of UBI over generations. Children growing up with UBI may never see people close to them who do actual work. I once had a summer job at a welfare/employment agency. A lot of the people who received welfare in the second or third generation often had no idea how a job works. They were late all the time or just didn't show up for a week. The social worker had to explain to them how a…

I don't completely disagree with you. I personally know two 2nd-generation 'trustfunders' who many would say don't do much. That is, they 'just' do leisure work. One plays poker part time, and he volunteers the rest of his time. The other promotes bands that she likes. But, are they really doing nothing of value? I think many people who meet them are sort of envious: seems like a nice life! I also know more than a fe…

Supporting your third paragraph, I had some contact with the unschooling movement while growing up. The experience is typically that kids will do nothing for a while. Maybe quite a while. But then they get bored, and start to pursue things they find interesting. Art, music, literature, science, programming. You sort of need to detox from living under a very defined structure before you learn to self direct and spend time doing things you enjoy. It also seems possible that this transition could become more difficult as people age. Intuitively that makes sense to me, and might partially explain why some adults have a hard time transitioning into retirement.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#402
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish technically-inclined people who could live off their savings would work on FOSS communication tools (e.g. FreedomBox, MatterMost, Matrix.org, Smallest Federated Wiki, or similar) to create viable alternatives to the centralized profit-driven communication and search systems created by venture capitalism. Or do whatever other worthwhile FOSS floats your boat like for educational simulations or whatever to be pa…

Personally I don't believe in idea that many people would be able to build successful FOSS projects and communities around them while living off their savings. It's could be a good for the start, but nothing would work without project having viable business model like MatterMost or Discourse have. Or if someone sponsors it be it some corporation or individual. Reason for this is simple: successful project it's not ju…

I agree anyone competent enough to run a good FOSS project from their savings will face a daily temptation of abandoning their precarious existence for a substantial secure income working at a corporate job. And I agree also that it is problematical how to divide donations to a project when there are multiple contributors (especially versus donations to specific developers, but even that is problematic if a multi-person project is involved). I also agree on the need for building a community around a project.

Where we differ regarding the BI and FOSS is possibly in thinking in these areas:

* There are many small but important projects (Mithril, Vue, many others -- even Linux early on) which are initially the work of one developer, eventually supported by a community. A BI would make more such starts possible, and also make contributions more feasible. While it is not quite "if you build it, they will come", certainly there are a lot of cases where a good project, well supported by one person, makes a big difference to a lot of people. Khan Academy in its early years is another great example of this.

* There is an entire gift economy of volunteerism. In some ways, much economic activity in even the USA is voluntary (even if it is ignored in the GDP) when you consider child care, helping neighbors, volunteering at non-profits, conversing with strangers to share knowledge, and so on. So, I know it is possible.

* Regarding "most people" and "some people": If you multiple seven billion people on the planet times even 0.1% of people being civic-minded at any particular time (and the percentage is probably much higher), then you get 7 million people. That is still a lot of people who can put a lot of time into things. And even without a BI, Clay Skirky said, there is a lot of time that could be liberated for improving free software and free content: https://web.archive.org/web/20110102193349/http://www.shirky... "Two hundred billion hours [of TV watching], in the U.S. alone, every year. Put another way, now that we have a unit, that's 2,000 Wikipedia projects a year spent watching television. Or put still another way, in the U.S., we spend 100 million hours every weekend, just watching the ads. This is a pretty big surplus."

The bottom line is that the way people make a lot of money is by standing between someone and something they want and asking for a toll to access that thing. Almost all venture business models are based on some variation of that (or aspire to that such rent seeking). It's not the only way to make money, but it is the way to make a lot of money. The problem is that tolls have lots of external costs. For tolls at bridges there are delays, health costs of fumes, and increased risks of accidents. For online software, there is the externality of lost privacy (but only one-way, consumer to aggregator) needed to make possible the tolls Google and Facebook charge advertisers as they sell human eyeballs. There is also the externality of risks from central points of failure (whether loss of service or censorship).

Small-scale exchange commerce may make a lot of capitalistic sense at the scale of, say, running a local farm, bagel shop, or plumbing company. But on a large scale, like Facebook, Google, Slack, and so on, the centralization of control of information flows poses enormous risks to democracy.

If there was not so much regulatory capture, we might expect our governments to pour literally trillions of dollars a year into software (and content) for democracy right now given how important that is. Instead we have a proprietary centralized Facebook, Google, Twitter, and even Windows -- and our democracy and culture is at great risk from an imbalance of power. Governments at the behest of content publishers have continually expanded copyright and passed ever more draconian laws about sharing information. And every day we get more funding pouring into the next venture (like Slack) that can figure out how to capture and centralize more information and data mine it for the benefit of the investors.

For a latest example of how Slack continues to invest in data minining alll the secrets of coprorations: https://medium.com/@noah_weiss/starting-up-slack-s-search-le...

As we move into an age of AI, the emphasis on monopolistic business models is even more dangerous. It's bad enough to have a communications system shaped by short-term greed and competition -- it is far, far worse to have autonomous inhuman AIs shaped by short-term greed and competition let loose on the net.

I wrote an essay relate to such funding trends over a decade ago, with a section on automotive intelligence: http://pdfernhout.net/on-funding-digital-public-works.html#w...

Of course, ultimately, there are lots of moral failures all around. If people had rejected Facebook or Slack from the start, the world online might be a very different place.

But, in the words of Marc Zuckerberg: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg

  Zuck: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard
  Zuck: Just ask
  Zuck: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS
  [Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one?
  Zuck: People just submitted it.
  Zuck: I don't know why.
  Zuck: They "trust me"
  Zuck: Dumb fucks
Now, we all need to trust other people in this world to have a happy life. But in a democracy, the idea is to spread that trust around as much as is feasible and have checks and balances. There is also the notion of incrementally earned trust -- and also the recall of trust (like impeachment).

But how do we impeach Facebook, Slack, Google, or Equifax? In our society, we can't. The best we can do is create alternatives.

Instead of centralized proprietary services like Facebook or Slack, we could instead have shared standards (e.g. email, IRC, or what comes next) and a variety of implementers of those standards. But if all the techies are being paid by VC to work for Facebook or Slack or the next similar service, that creates a vacuum of developers working on better email or better IRC standards (and implementations).

We may benefit from some hierarchy, but we also benefit from having that mixed with some meshwork (as Manuel De Landa suggests: http://www.t0.or.at/delanda/meshwork.htm ).

There are several options for moving forward -- a Basic Income is just one of them. Maybe there can be better business models that affirm democracy. And maybe there can be more court rulings protecting democracy. And maybe there can be more collective investment by government and foundations in FOSS. (One other place I suggest that is here, suggesting the intelligence community fund FOSS intelligence tools: http://web.archive.org/web/20160508005451/http://pcast.ideas... ) But we may not get there if we believe a conventional rent-seeking business model is the only way to fund most software and communication services.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#403
post #112

My guess on how it will turn out: 1. People given Basic income and minimal addictions will fair best 2. People without basic income and minimal addictions will fair second best 2. People without basic income and addictions will fair third best(drugs, major alcohol, internet/game) 4. People given basic income and addictions will fair worst(drugs, major alcohol, internet/game) I'm probably completely wrong. 3 and 4 cou…

Agreement/disagreement are not the only reasons for the voting system. Relevance is important, too.

I agree that my opinion/guesses are irrelevant. But, it started a conversation that could become relevant.

- or devolve into BS you never know.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your abstract 3rd-party justification from a distance fails to note the rest of that sentence: "Overall basic income is theft from workers and will be seen as such by those workers. " When enough of those producing wealth decide that UBI = theft, they aren't going to just continue producing without pushing back. Personally, if UBI is implemented, I will "go Galt" and move to a self-sufficient homesteading-style life,…

>because so many people find paid idleness a desirable lifestyle. You're close, and it's an easy mistake to make since it seems intuitive. However, the reality is that people find THE IDEA of paid idleness desirable. Small N, but everyone I know who has found themselves in that position has only remained idle for a very short time. Productivity quickly returns, although not in the form of trading time for money.

I believe you but that is anecdotal. I know people that not only want to remain idle if their basic needs are taken care of but currently do, and have been doing it for decades.

Like most human traits, there is a wide degree of variance. As such there is no doubt in my mind UBI would allow a greater number of idlers because it would be more easily available. Just as it would allow more people to trade a job they don't like for a constructive activity they do.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#405
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I’m someone who happened to both grow up on welfare AND watch zero people close to me work any sort of job ever. Your comment reads to me as an implicit argument against UBI. Is that your case? Allow to me comment from an insider perspective. - The welfare money didn’t cause the lack of work. They were not strongly related or if anything it’s the lack of work that drives the need to take up welfare. - It’s likely…

I am not arguing against welfare or UBI. I am just saying the long-term effect may be different from what people are thinking. Especially at HN people seem to think all people on UBI will turn into artists or develop software all day. Maybe that will be the case but I have my doubts. "People who grow up without working role models do have a harder time learning the ropes on the work life, on that we agree. That doesn…

The basic problem with welfare as it currently exists, is that it actually provides disincentives to working. If you start working they take away similar amounts of welfare. You'd have to get a job that is way more than the welfare for it to make even a little sense.

That disincentive goes away with UBI, which is the main reason I think it would work better. Under that system, every dollar you earn directly translates to a better standard of living.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "smart contract" is still reacting to things in the real world. It's not going to magically cause the stock market to not fail. And, as we've seen, they are vulnerable to hacking.

It doesn't magically solve all problems, just the most important one. Trust.

How?

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#407
post #400
post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think nothing would change on the supply side? There are plenty of low income workers that would quit their jobs, driving their wages up - thereby either driving up the cost of goods or reducing supply. Unless of course the goods are shipped from nonUBI countries

Good point, I hadn't considered those second order effects. > There are plenty of low income workers that would quit their jobs, driving their wages up I don't think we have enough information currently to unequivocally state that. How many low income workers would quit? It's not like many people in better paying jobs reduce their working hours up to a point where they make the equivalent amount of money as a UBI. Ho…

As is seen with people on welfare there are plenty of jobs they won't take if they don't have to. The meager wages don't make them worth it.

Because of this I think prices would soar much higher than 40%

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's missing from your claim is any justification for it all. You're just claiming, on zero authority, that it's not possible. So enlighten us. Why do you think it's impossible to encode the mechanics of a pension in a smart contract-based system?

I didn't need to, the comment I replied to already addressed a valid why. Smart contracts can't enforce access to funds without locking the funds up from other use, and that's not how things work in the real world. Pensions aren't savings accounts where funds are locked up ready to be used in a black box. They can't interact with the real world without trusted oracles, but we already have that in the real world and t…

You're just claiming it's impractical today, not technically infeasible for any reason.

1. Pensions don't currently work like this

There are many thousands of different pension systems across the world.

It stands to reason that you could create new system, and if it had significantly attractive advantages, people would use it.

2. Trusted oracles are a problem

Yup, we need more decentralized services that smart contracts can take advantage of. Wait a few years, they're coming.

3. Smart contracts are only useful for deterministic changes

Making deterministic change is precisely what you want. Do you mean statically defined? Because that's obviously not correct. And are you considering a new system specifically designed for pensions?

Virtually all innovative technology is "hype" until it isn't. I agree we have a ways to go.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't magically solve all problems, just the most important one. Trust.

How?

You don't have to trust anyone with access to your pension not to steal from it, because no one has access to it.

The promise that is your pension would be cryptographically enshrined in a blockchain, with full transparency.

Re: Basic Income Research Proposal

#410
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This crosses into personal attack. You can't do that here, regardless of how wrong or annoying someone else's comment is, and we ban accounts that do it repeatedly. Would you please (re)-read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this?

I have been participating on HN for years never been accused of that before. What exactly are you referring to? Furthermore I can't fix anything as I can't edit.

I'm referring to the personal swipes in "if you can't actually formulate your own thinking in a comment but are so lazy", etc. Yes, there's an "if", but it's still unduly personal. That's why I said "crosses into" rather than "is".

By "fix" I just mean editing that kind of thing out in the future. Shouldn't be hard. And thanks for being an excellent HN contributor!

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