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Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

theamericanconservative.com

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Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#91

Post by nradov »

RUG3Y wrote: post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

Read the McSweeney's column "In These Deserts: War Stories From Afghanistan" written by a former Army officer. It's absolutely heartbreaking.

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/column-1-the-misundersta...

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#92

Post by Clubber »

bryananderson wrote: post #88
Clubber wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What can they do? Don't say vote, it was a serious question.

They really could vote though! As much as I hate him, Trump proved that you can win without the political and business establishments behind you. There are meaningful structural reforms that need to be carried out that would make it easier for the people's will to be expressed (gerrymandering, electoral college, citizens united, etc etc). But as of right now, no "establishment" is changing votes or shutting down "ant…

>But do you see the majority of the people even trying to do that any time soon?

We barely have the majority of the people show up at the polls.

One of the more groundbreaking things about Trump is he is the first R of note to denounce the Iraq war. The problem we currently have with the establishment is as a rule, they don't criticize publicly other members of their party.

For me, that was significant. Ole Jeb said he would fight the Iraq war again. Probably not because he believed it, but because he wouldn't criticize a fellow R, let alone his own brother.

Just think of all the decades of bad policies we have that may have been reversed had that unspoken rule not existed?

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#93

Post by 0xbear »

Sommersonn wrote: post #90
0xbear wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re missing is 20M+ Russians were killed in the last world war. That kind of causes deep seated trust issues. You’re also utterly missing any understanding of geopolitics. May I recommend “Flashpoints” by George Friedman and “World Order” by Henry Kissinger. This will open your eyes to how the world works, and why things are the way they are. And you should be worried if there are US nukes in you country. Tha…

>What you’re missing is 20M+ Russians were killed in the last world war. That kind of causes deep seated trust issues. 20M+ _Soviets_, not Russians. And USSR started that war ON THE SAME SIDE as Hitler, so they can blame themselves for 'trust issues'.

Mostly Russians. And 20M is the “official” number. There are independent estimates that put the casualties even higher.

USSR was never “on the same side” as Hitler. It was never a part of The Axis. Stalin was just hoping that capitalist swine would take each other out and then he would roll in and take over. Same as the US was hoping Hitler would fuck up Russia and much of Europe so they could roll in and take over. As far as the spoils of war, the real winner was the US. Britain gave up its last ambitions of being a naval superpower and handed over its navy bases to the US. The US was propelled to the superpower status with relatively little loss of life, and became the dominant industrial power as well. Weakened USSR was denied power in Western Europe. What’s not to like?

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#94

Post by mythrwy »

RUG3Y wrote: post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

What I personally think he should have said was this:

"Good question Son. Glad you asked. See, the US needs to maintain a military sphere of influence between the resource rich regions of the former Soviet Union and the heavily populated regions of South East Asia. Additionally we would like something of a base between an emerging China and Russia, Pakistan and Iran. You've played "Risk" right? It's a strategic thing see. The terrorism angle is all bullshit. That's just to sell the war to the public. There. Happy now? Great, go pack your bags."

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#95

Post by dragonwriter »

zeveb wrote: post #5
RUG3Y wrote: post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

> For the life of me, I can't understand the strategic purpose of invading Afghanistan. They're not even the ones who attacked us on 9/11. The Afghan government at the time offered sanctuary to Al Qaeda, refusing to hand over its members after they had declared war on the U.S., attacked USS Cole, hijacked four civilian aircraft and crashed them into the World Trade CEnter & the Pentagon, killing thousands; the strate…

> The Afghan government at the time

There wasn't one.

You probably mean the Taliban, but while they may have been the largest of several de facto or putative governments in Afghanistan at the time, they were never the government of Afghanistan.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#96

Post by chrisbennet »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #60
cat199 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As much as I love my country, at this point were there even a hint of a draft I would be the first to drive my teenage boys to the Canadian border -- a concept that would have astounded and enraged a younger me. Easier said than done for someone like me who never enlisted, but my take is having a draft would actually reduce the ability to wage war on a whim, since war would actually have the potential to impact mor…

Certainly, reinstating the draft would be a massive shift in how we've done things since the mid-70s. There's no guarantee that it will ever return, even if it was needed. But at some point, if you really do have a military-industrial complex pushing for eternal war (I'm still not sold on how much weight this faction actually carries relative to the incompetence or malevolence of a handful of high-level advisers) and…

The Vietnam draft had a loophole for upper middle class kids - the college deferment. What sense did that make other than to exempt rich kids from going to war?

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#97

Post by EliRivers »

0xbear wrote: post #93
Sommersonn wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What you’re missing is 20M+ Russians were killed in the last world war. That kind of causes deep seated trust issues. 20M+ _Soviets_, not Russians. And USSR started that war ON THE SAME SIDE as Hitler, so they can blame themselves for 'trust issues'.

Mostly Russians. And 20M is the “official” number. There are independent estimates that put the casualties even higher. USSR was never “on the same side” as Hitler. It was never a part of The Axis. Stalin was just hoping that capitalist swine would take each other out and then he would roll in and take over. Same as the US was hoping Hitler would fuck up Russia and much of Europe so they could roll in and take over.…

Much of the world considers making a deal to carve up Poland as being "on the same side". You don't, but lots of people do, so terms need to be spelled out clearly if you're going to communicate.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#98

Post by ggm »

So.. if the US hadn't supplied the Mujahideen with stingers, and brought down the soviet backed government in Afghanistan.. none of this last 30 year nightmare would have happened?

Cool. Think of all the amazing things we could have done with that surplus capital not going to bechtel...

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#99

Post by 0xbear »

EliRivers wrote: post #97
0xbear wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly Russians. And 20M is the “official” number. There are independent estimates that put the casualties even higher. USSR was never “on the same side” as Hitler. It was never a part of The Axis. Stalin was just hoping that capitalist swine would take each other out and then he would roll in and take over. Same as the US was hoping Hitler would fuck up Russia and much of Europe so they could roll in and take over.…

Much of the world considers making a deal to carve up Poland as being "on the same side". You don't, but lots of people do, so terms need to be spelled out clearly if you're going to communicate.

The alternative to not “carving up Poland” was to not sign the mutual non-aggression pact and essentially enter into war with Germany before it thoroughly fucks up Britain and France. Britain and France would be quite delighted if Hitler pursued that course of action. I’m pretty sure theyd even withhold any meaningful military assistance to help things along while Hitler makes his run on Russia, for the same reason Stalin did. In fact they sorta had done that already by refusing to enter into a pact against Nazi Germany.

You can’t reason about geostrategic considerations in terms of moral high ground. Those dudes were dealing with a very dangerous and volatile situation, and the decisions they made were literally matters of life and death for their respective peoples.

That’s not to absolve anyone of guilt, but if you’re going to be an armchair quarterback, do yourself a favor and study history a bit more thoroughly. At that negotiating table any of us today would have made the exact same choice.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#100

Post by RUG3Y »

mythrwy wrote: post #94
RUG3Y wrote: post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

What I personally think he should have said was this: "Good question Son. Glad you asked. See, the US needs to maintain a military sphere of influence between the resource rich regions of the former Soviet Union and the heavily populated regions of South East Asia. Additionally we would like something of a base between an emerging China and Russia, Pakistan and Iran. You've played "Risk" right? It's a strategic thing…

I mentioned China in another comment and I think you're correct.
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