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Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

theamericanconservative.com

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Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#71

Post by mjevans »

baursak wrote: post #36
maxxxxx wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afghanistan actually made more sense than Iraq since the Taliban were harboring Al Qaeda. So when 9/11 happened, it made sense to go after them. Iraq never made sense on the other hand.

More sense than Iraq, but less sense than Saudi Arabia.

The sooner the rest of the world can get on to solar, wind, hydro, and modern atomic reactors (not the old dangerous kind, but properly supervised, maintained, and "waste reducing" ones that produce only a small bit of the really bad stuff) the sooner we can de-fund terrorists.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#72

Post by MrZongle2 »

yters wrote: post #67
MrZongle2 wrote: post #21

I was in Iraq in 1991. My friends and I were astounded when we heard of the cease-fire; we could easily push towards Baghdad and take care of Saddam Hussein, who was clearly the Hitler of our time. "We'll be back in a decade" I thought, as it seemed as if we were leaving with our work unfinished. I was off by a couple of years, but in 2003 when we went back into Iraq to finally take care of Hussein, I was pleased. Of…

Apathy is the status quo's greatest asset.

I think it's ignorance.

We've seen the efforts to combat apathy, especially during the last political season and the subsequent year: rage, passion, and plenty of ignorance.

"News" now consists of some talking heads yelling at each other, other talking heads desperately trying to label this group or that phrase or that other imagery as evil incarnate, interspersed with footage of extremists in the street screaming and breaking things.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find somebody apathetic about the state of the country right now, outside of those who are totally ignorant about it. And just because some people aren't vocal doesn't mean they aren't simmering about something.

Educating a populace strikes me as far harder than getting them all worked up, doubly so after they've been all worked up.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#73

Post by 0xbear »

slezyr wrote: post #66
0xbear wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afghanistan I do sorta get why the US got involved. I think it’s impossible to “win” there, but I get the involvement. But Iraq was a completely retarded situation. Funding goddamn terrorists in Syria was retarded too. Regime change is retarded in general, aside from the dramatic events like WW2. It never works. Land war on the other end of the world serves only one purpose: just to show that the US government is a d…

> A good example are Georgia and Ukraine: crises were created out of nothing to keep a festering boil on Russia’s ass. I'm ukrainian, can you tell me more? You know how maidan started? It was a peaceful protest and if cops simply ignored it, nothing would happen. Instead they did this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-talnbWQDpI This caused a bigger protest and response was the same. And etc and etc. At some moment t…

I’m Russian, but I don’t live in Russia, so I’m not exposed to “Russian propaganda” (you do seem to be exposed to the Ukrainian flavor of it though). I also commiserate with what happened on the Ukrainian side, and in every election where Putin ran I voted against Putin. I dislike the man, and think he will be harmful to Russia in the long term.

That said, you also can’t deny the involvement of the US Department of state in those events. The fundamental geostrategical priority for Russia is to maintain control (or at least good relations with, see Belarus) of the buffer regions around its densely populated regions. This stems from geography and topology: there are no mountains to protect the West of Russia from a land invasion. This is inviolable geostrategic principle that Russia, having learned the lessons of WW2, will just not let anyone touch.

That is why there are “tensions” when your neighbor begins discussions of entering NATO with a bit of USDS help. NATO means (eventually) foreign military bases and tactical nukes within 100km of Rostov-on-Don and Taganrog. This is fundamentally unacceptable to Russia, which they have been saying again and again to everyone who would listen years before things turned ugly. It’s not personal, it’s a question of national security for them. The US would have done the same or worse if Russia got Mexico to enter a military alliance with it.

Again, I sympathize, but I really can’t see how, given the progression of events, things could have turned any differently.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#74

Post by [deleted] »

drharby wrote: post #70
RUG3Y wrote: post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

That's certainly one perspective. As a mil. Brat to an enlisted infantryman and former AF cgo, i got to see the policy design and implementation at scale. Many were very much dedicated to the mission, but many were also dedicated to greasing up thag contractor for a nice cushy connection when the punch out, were checking their boxes for a transition to their ivy league of choice, or pushing for highly competitive pro…

[deleted]

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#76

Post by RUG3Y »

fapjacks wrote: post #61
RUG3Y wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on. I don't think the military is a place for people who think too hard. I don't want to make blanket judgements though because I met a few excellent people that earned my respect and I'm happy to know them.

You've got to be in the right job and the right unit. In my experience (~12 years across a handful of units and tours), infantry units are about ten thousand percent less political than POG units. Also Guard units are much more easy-going. I was not the only Mensa member in my last unit, and most of my best friends I met there. Being in the infantry in the Guard is a specific kind of environment, mostly college stude…

I was in an infantry unit, Marines. In general politics weren't a thing, if you mean American politics. Internal politics on the other hand are a big deal and it's astounding what people will do to one another to get promoted.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#78

Post by skrebbel »

0xbear wrote: post #73
slezyr wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A good example are Georgia and Ukraine: crises were created out of nothing to keep a festering boil on Russia’s ass. I'm ukrainian, can you tell me more? You know how maidan started? It was a peaceful protest and if cops simply ignored it, nothing would happen. Instead they did this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-talnbWQDpI This caused a bigger protest and response was the same. And etc and etc. At some moment t…

I’m Russian, but I don’t live in Russia, so I’m not exposed to “Russian propaganda” (you do seem to be exposed to the Ukrainian flavor of it though). I also commiserate with what happened on the Ukrainian side, and in every election where Putin ran I voted against Putin. I dislike the man, and think he will be harmful to Russia in the long term. That said, you also can’t deny the involvement of the US Department of s…

I see your point but at the same time my country has American nukes in it and we're not scared.

Of course that's a ridiculous comparison given current tensions, but you're assuming that Russia and the USA / NATO somehow have to be enemies by definition and the rest of your argument follows from that. Why would a Russia-Mexico alliance need to be scary? Why would a USA-Ukraine alliance need to be scary? Hey, can't we have Entire-Northern-Hemisphere alliance?

Of course this is not currently realistic, and I'm not actually suggesting all our leaders just hug and be friends. But the only reason that I can see that things are like this is because just about everybody, all the policymakers as well as friendly internet commenters like yourselves, just assume it has to be like this. That makes it sort of a self-fulfilling cycle. Russia and America have a cold war because they have a cold war.

There are plenty of countries in NATO that are about as undemocratic as Russia, or less culturally similar to the founding NATO countries than Russia. If Turkey can be in NATO, why can't Russia? Renaming "NATO" should be the blocker, right. Momentum is the only reason that I can see why these two sides need to be sides.

Really, I don't see why we need to be enemies other than ego tripping politicians doing a penis size contest.

But I'm probably missing something.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#79

Post by Nelson69 »

cat199 wrote: post #53
MrZongle2 wrote: post #21

I was in Iraq in 1991. My friends and I were astounded when we heard of the cease-fire; we could easily push towards Baghdad and take care of Saddam Hussein, who was clearly the Hitler of our time. "We'll be back in a decade" I thought, as it seemed as if we were leaving with our work unfinished. I was off by a couple of years, but in 2003 when we went back into Iraq to finally take care of Hussein, I was pleased. Of…

> As much as I love my country, at this point were there even a hint of a draft I would be the first to drive my teenage boys to the Canadian border -- a concept that would have astounded and enraged a younger me. Easier said than done for someone like me who never enlisted, but my take is having a draft would actually reduce the ability to wage war on a whim, since war would actually have the potential to impact mor…

I think impacting everyone is a big part of the idea. I'm all for every possible tactical advantages if we're risking the lives of our youth and I don't know that a full vote in both the house and senate in order to wage war is the right thing but I'd absolutely support some sort of constitutional amendment that created a tax and draft for any military engagement that lasts more than 30 or 60 days or something.

We have to pay for that stuff and we have to staff it.

The real costs of Iraq and Afghanistan will play out over the next 50 years. Vets already commit suicide at a staggering rate. We already under treat post traumatic stress. We under treat most emotional issues. We over treat "pain." The divorce rate among soldiers is something like 2 to 3x the national average. The people that go and do the fighting don't exactly make up a nice normal looking slice of our national demographics either..

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#80

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

lexwraith wrote: post #32

I don't protest because I don't have time, nor would I think it's effective. People are just too busy for a war that is completely separated from them to care about it. I did care, at one point, but I too have been grinded down by both my experiences overseas and the people I served with. I enlisted in the USMC in 2005. 0311. Felt like I had been ready since I was 11 or 12. I went to Boot Camp, and then SOI. First ta…

Thank you for your writeup. Here's something you could consider that may help evoke change - take these ideas into a longer article and pass it over some editors to try and get it published in a more mainstream forum.
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