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Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

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Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#61

Post by fapjacks »

RUG3Y wrote: post #43
le-mark wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more of a situation where, no one at that level is going to change anything, so just talking about the absurdity is frowned upon just for the simple reason of negatively effecting moral, and negatively impacting your next promotion review. Independent thought? Bah! I found the Army to be highly political, everything anyone with rank did was intended to bolster their reviews in the eyes of their superiors…

Spot on. I don't think the military is a place for people who think too hard. I don't want to make blanket judgements though because I met a few excellent people that earned my respect and I'm happy to know them.

You've got to be in the right job and the right unit. In my experience (~12 years across a handful of units and tours), infantry units are about ten thousand percent less political than POG units. Also Guard units are much more easy-going. I was not the only Mensa member in my last unit, and most of my best friends I met there. Being in the infantry in the Guard is a specific kind of environment, mostly college students and police officers. There is a tolerance for free-thinking and independent thought that is totally rare anywhere else in the Army.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#62

Post by notahacker »

jMyles wrote: post #41
euyyn wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what we knew about Al Qaeda, why we believed some of its associates to be in Afghanistan, etc. I was living in Spain and no one needed the US to explain why they "believed some of Al-Qaeda's associates were in Afghanistan". I'm not sure if you didn't watch the news through that time or what, but the Taliban were very upfront about having Bin Laden. E.g.: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/taliban-wont-turn-over-bin-lade.…

They were up-front about having Bin Laden, but not about harboring "Al Qaeda" - a phrase which Bin Laden didn't use in any public media appearance until a month later. They wanted evidence that Bin Laden had anything to do with the attacks (which of course he denied). Why not deliberatively and carefully provide this evidence to the world instead of rushing into a war? What's the strategic value there?

> Why not deliberatively and carefully provide this evidence to the world instead of rushing into a war? What's the strategic value there?

Alternate view: what was to be gained by deliberatively and carefully providing further details on their intelligence sources for general explanations they'd already offered, when it was palpably obvious the Afghan government had no intention of changing the position they'd held for the last three years that there was no way they were going to betray Bin Laden to Libya, never mind the United States? Where was the advantage to engaging in a war of rhetoric with an government committed to protecting somebody that openly called upon his fellow Muslims to bomb the US, a government whose leader compared the notion of giving up Bin Laden to "the end of Islam" and was obviously going to dismiss any evidence presented as insufficient. (even more obvious with the hindsight of what happened a couple of years later when flimsy presentations of evidence harmed the US case for war in Iraq even before it became clear most of the evidence wasn't true)

It's difficult to argue the US action in Afghanistan solved much (though there are certainly people who have benefited as well as those who have suffered as a result) but it's even more difficult to argue they were in a position where they could show that fatwas against the US and series' of attacks culminating in flying jetliners into buildings didn't have any consequences if you weren't a government but had the tacit support of one.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#63

Post by the-dude »

notahacker wrote: post #49
the-dude wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did not refuse to hand over OBL, they wanted to see some proof. Which was of course a-OK for the US, they did not want OBL, they wanted to invade.

I don't doubt the US was happy to go to war (and do doubt Bin Laden would have gone quietly if the Taliban had said "you're welcome to come and arrest him") but it's something of a stretch to imagine Afghanistan only wanted to "see some proof" even if that was one of their stated positions. The Taliban had spent the last three years refusing multiple countries' requests to extradite Bin Laden for other bombings and w…

Fair enough, I knew my position was 1 dimensional.

Although you might be correct on all your points, it glosses over the fact there might actually be no proof at all.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#64

Post by maxxxxx »

ashark wrote: post #54
maxxxxx wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They wanted evidence that Bin Laden had anything to do with the attacks (which of course he denied)." What are you talking about? Bin Laden took credit for 9/11 immediately and it was pretty clear that they had their training camps in Afghanistan. Nobody denied that. Iraq was a different situation. to go there the US had to make up things.

> What are you talking about? Bin Laden took credit for 9/11 immediately Both my recollection and Wikipedia (admittedly neither being authoritative) agree that Bin Laden denied involvement for some time after the attacks (Wiki says he didn't claim responsibility until 2004 ). The Taliban denounced the attacks the day of and, separately, stated Bin Laden wasn't involved (which might seem weird, but there's some backgr…

Interesting. I didn't remember that his video came out only 2004. I thought it was much earlier. In any case there was not much controversy about the Afghanistan invasion. I don't recall much doubt about that. The real controversy was about Iraq later on.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#65

Post by RobertoG »

jMyles wrote: post #31
ashark wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, by '09 there was clearly no reason. When they originally sold the war they played up Al Qaeda's size, power, and level of infrastructure (specifically in Afghanistan) so, assuming you believed that[1] the original invasion kind of made sense. [1] personally, my suspicions that the claims that this organization was so huge and capable and dangerous, yet had only just now managed anything so big and had totally f…

Here's that interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGhGHxw0mSo It's shocking now to watch. How did anyone ever buy this? I remember being 18 at the time and thinking it was completely ludicrous. I wonder if anyone seriously believed it or if it was just the story that the media needed to hear to feel less sheepish about acting like this war made any sense.

There are a lot of things that are shocking to watch with the perspective of time.

Like this article, from 1993, about the 'Anti-Soviet warrior' Bin Laden:

http://www.businessinsider.com/1993-independent-article-abou...

I find it fascinating.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#66

Post by slezyr »

0xbear wrote: post #42
RUG3Y wrote: post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

Afghanistan I do sorta get why the US got involved. I think it’s impossible to “win” there, but I get the involvement. But Iraq was a completely retarded situation. Funding goddamn terrorists in Syria was retarded too. Regime change is retarded in general, aside from the dramatic events like WW2. It never works. Land war on the other end of the world serves only one purpose: just to show that the US government is a d…

> A good example are Georgia and Ukraine: crises were created out of nothing to keep a festering boil on Russia’s ass.

I'm ukrainian, can you tell me more? You know how maidan started? It was a peaceful protest and if cops simply ignored it, nothing would happen.

Instead they did this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-talnbWQDpI

This caused a bigger protest and response was the same. And etc and etc.

At some moment they started to kidnap protesters from the hospitals. Then one of protesters have been found dead near the river. Another found in the wood with plastic bag on his head and they took out his intestines.

> created out of nothing to keep a festering boil on Russia’s ass

There been reasons for it.

You know, I've been a pro-russian ukrainian all my life. I didn't liked ukrainian language(I'm from russian speaking part) and still can't speak it. But when russians started it propaganda campaign I started hate EVERYTHING about russia.

Unlike Russia Today russian speaking propaganda was much dirtier and much more retarded. One they showed a magnet from speaker on TV and said that it was a bomb with HIV dropped by ukrainian aircraft.

So... I wanted to say: fuck your "good example". Because isn't good for non-retarded person.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#67

Post by yters »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #21

I was in Iraq in 1991. My friends and I were astounded when we heard of the cease-fire; we could easily push towards Baghdad and take care of Saddam Hussein, who was clearly the Hitler of our time. "We'll be back in a decade" I thought, as it seemed as if we were leaving with our work unfinished. I was off by a couple of years, but in 2003 when we went back into Iraq to finally take care of Hussein, I was pleased. Of…

Apathy is the status quo's greatest asset.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#68

Post by technics256 »

lexwraith wrote: post #32

I don't protest because I don't have time, nor would I think it's effective. People are just too busy for a war that is completely separated from them to care about it. I did care, at one point, but I too have been grinded down by both my experiences overseas and the people I served with. I enlisted in the USMC in 2005. 0311. Felt like I had been ready since I was 11 or 12. I went to Boot Camp, and then SOI. First ta…

"We are the aimless generation, just trying to survive the journey through the minefield our forefathers had left us, day after day."

Quote of our generation. Well said.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#69

Post by MrZongle2 »

smcl wrote: post #30
MrZongle2 wrote: post #21

I was in Iraq in 1991. My friends and I were astounded when we heard of the cease-fire; we could easily push towards Baghdad and take care of Saddam Hussein, who was clearly the Hitler of our time. "We'll be back in a decade" I thought, as it seemed as if we were leaving with our work unfinished. I was off by a couple of years, but in 2003 when we went back into Iraq to finally take care of Hussein, I was pleased. Of…

> that continued to kill decent American kids. and decent Iraqis of all ages

In the years since, I've sometimes thought about my counterparts in the Iraqi army during the Gulf War: the ones on the "Highway of Death", and the ones simply bombed to smithereens in the middle of nowhere.

Their leadership probably deserved that fate, though few of the rank-and-file.

I wonder what Iraq would be like today if we had done in 1991 what we postponed to 2003. I wonder how many of those Iraqis killed since the Gulf War would have been able to make their country a far better place than it is today.

Ultimately, the whole thing has been a massive failure; it would have been better for us, and likely much of the Middle East, to have let Iraq take Kuwait (and Saudi Arabia, for that matter). It wasn't our fight. It was never our fight.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#70

Post by drharby »

RUG3Y wrote: post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

That's certainly one perspective.

As a mil. Brat to an enlisted infantryman and former AF cgo, i got to see the policy design and implementation at scale. Many were very much dedicated to the mission, but many were also dedicated to greasing up thag contractor for a nice cushy connection when the punch out, were checking their boxes for a transition to their ivy league of choice, or pushing for highly competitive programs like weapons school or a PhD at MIT/Harvard.

But at the end if the day, everyone is dedicated to doing what their function in the greater organization is. The role of the armed forces is to faithfully execute the mission handed to them by their civilian commanders. We are an arm of foreign police (DIME, Diplomacy, information, military, economic pressure). The POTUS has every bit of power to pull us out, and that is where the cynicism should be directed.

The last secaf fought SO HARD to kill the mil-congressional-industrial complex, but there is too much inertia. The american military machine is a complexed component of American Society.

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