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Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

theamericanconservative.com

31–40 of 124 posts

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#31
post #18
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked the question ~2009. What never made sense to me is that with unsecured borders, what's the point of invaded a poor country of goat farmers? Ok yeah, so Al Qaeda supposedly attacked us and they were allegedly being harbored in Afghanistan. But the guys in the planes were Saudi. Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia? (That's a rhetorical question). If someone wants to come here and hurt us, they can do it pretty ea…

Yeah, by '09 there was clearly no reason. When they originally sold the war they played up Al Qaeda's size, power, and level of infrastructure (specifically in Afghanistan) so, assuming you believed that[1] the original invasion kind of made sense. [1] personally, my suspicions that the claims that this organization was so huge and capable and dangerous, yet had only just now managed anything so big and had totally f…

Here's that interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGhGHxw0mSo

It's shocking now to watch. How did anyone ever buy this? I remember being 18 at the time and thinking it was completely ludicrous. I wonder if anyone seriously believed it or if it was just the story that the media needed to hear to feel less sheepish about acting like this war made any sense.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#32
I don't protest because I don't have time, nor would I think it's effective. People are just too busy for a war that is completely separated from them to care about it. I did care, at one point, but I too have been grinded down by both my experiences overseas and the people I served with.

I enlisted in the USMC in 2005. 0311. Felt like I had been ready since I was 11 or 12.

I went to Boot Camp, and then SOI. First taste of reality is bitter. My entire generation of Marines were called the 'X-Box' generation for our complacency and lack of earnest effort. Our ranks had swelled up to ~215K in the Marine Corps, and with it, a lower of the bar to join. That's just the way it was. Kids were already getting kicked out - hardship, drugs, etc. Still didn't mind - it felt like everyone was on the same page. We were crusaders to be, and our religion was America and deliverance was provided in the form of 5.56mm. Felt good, the narrative. Felt right.

And then I joined the fleet, and that's when I realized I was a fucking idiot. This whole time, I had believed in something grand, some kind of romanticized view of war and life and how boys - no, men like me - could make a huge impact and different in the world against a nefarious enemy that struck out at all that was good. And you know how many people shared that view? Maybe 5, 10%. We were intelligent, idealistic, and had some 'reason' to be there. That is not the case for the vast, vast majority of people who enlist. It usually takes some life experience for you to join up, hit the fleet, and not be bewildered by it, and that was something virtually all of us, with the precious few best of us, lacked.

When we got in country, the shock was amplified. The aimlessness/worthlessness of my generation was reflected in both wars. I was in Iraq twice, and both times, it seemed like our only job was to just maintain the security of Ramadi, and then Al Asad. That was it. Occasionally hunt bad guys, get blown up all the time, be bullet/bomb shields by proxy for a populace that wasn't 100% sure what it wanted.

What exactly was the mission to stop foreign fighters from flooding into the country? Beats me. What exactly were we going to do to uproot and prop up a culture that is has no real concent of loving thy neighbor and working together to achieve some state of sovereignty? Beats me. How do we turn this society into a capital G Great society? How were riflemen supposed to achieve that? Would it even meet the objectives of the mission? Nah we thought, we should just keep handing out generators, heavy equipment, and speedballs (not the drug) to the populace. We were just enlisted men on the bottom, evoking smiles when we did good and hate when we accidentally kill some guy's brother because he ignored the red flag not to go down this road towards our base.

Nothing changed, day in, day out.

I knew quite a few devil dogs who were in OEF, Kandahar and Helmund, before + after Marjah offensive. The feeling was the same. What exactly, are we doing here? For an organization that prides itself on achieving objectives, even at great individual cost, we sure did a shit job at explaining what exactly our goals were to the operators.

All this to say, what CAN I say that hasn't already been said? I don't need to 'protest' anything, because I don't hear a lot of people supporting our operations over there except for chicken hawks. I'm glad McCain's son, and John Kelly's children served with me. At least they put what is most dear to them on the line for what they believe. Can't say the same for most of modern day 'conservatives'. They have nothing on the line when they send people over, and that's the best I can protest, but what's the point? Nobody else seems to care either way - it seemed like the wiser of us had realized the whole thing was bullshit from the beginning, and now just don't care and have accepted it to be the way things are, sixteen years later. To top it off, we just have too much shit going on at home. Politics is really showing how bad democracy can get when the people themselves, the vessels of power, are fucking idiots and care more about feeling good than making good decisions for the future. I've got a housing crisis here, insurance crisis there, financial security crisis everywhere, so where can I fit in some good old protesting time? If I did, who would hear me? My old friends wouldn't want to hear it either. We just want some kind of peace of mind and happiness in our life, not dwell on the pointlessness of it all.

We are the aimless generation, just trying to survive the journey through the minefield our forefathers had left us, day after day.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#33
post #20
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the life of me, I can't understand the strategic purpose of invading Afghanistan. They're not even the ones who attacked us on 9/11. The Afghan government at the time offered sanctuary to Al Qaeda, refusing to hand over its members after they had declared war on the U.S., attacked USS Cole, hijacked four civilian aircraft and crashed them into the World Trade CEnter & the Pentagon, killing thousands; the strate…

> the strategic purpose of invading Afghanistan was to demonstrate to every country that shielding those who commit acts of war against the United States is itself an act of war against the United States In hindsight (actually, even it seemed even at the time) it was probably better to offer a more mature presentation to the world community about what we knew about Al Qaeda, why we believed some of its associates to…

> what we knew about Al Qaeda, why we believed some of its associates to be in Afghanistan, etc.

I was living in Spain and no one needed the US to explain why they "believed some of Al-Qaeda's associates were in Afghanistan". I'm not sure if you didn't watch the news through that time or what, but the Taliban were very upfront about having Bin Laden.

E.g.: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/taliban-wont-turn-over-bin-lade...

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#35
post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

I had a similar experience, except in the Army "Reserves", in Iraq, and asking my "stupid" question to our Major instead of a Lt. Col. My rank didn't survive the deployment, as I was attached to another unit at the time and asking questions put me high on his shit list. I guess I was lucky my home unit was kind enough to return the stripes before my inglorious departure a few after that deployment. You are 100% right…

I think it's more of a situation where, no one at that level is going to change anything, so just talking about the absurdity is frowned upon just for the simple reason of negatively effecting moral, and negatively impacting your next promotion review.

Independent thought? Bah! I found the Army to be highly political, everything anyone with rank did was intended to bolster their reviews in the eyes of their superiors. And being a hard charger, always on mission was an easy way to do it. I started to type some stories, but suffices to say, there's a lot of stupid stuff in the military.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#36
post #27
post #2

After returning from Iraq, I was jaded. Young when I started, I thought we were doing a good thing. My idealism was stripped away pretty quickly. After being stateside for a while, there were rumors that our unit would be deploying to Afghanistan. A Lt. Colonel came and gave a presentation to the company about conditions there. During the Q.A., I stood up and asked, "Sir, what are we really doing there? For the life…

Afghanistan actually made more sense than Iraq since the Taliban were harboring Al Qaeda. So when 9/11 happened, it made sense to go after them. Iraq never made sense on the other hand.

More sense than Iraq, but less sense than Saudi Arabia.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#37

The article draws a parallel between WW1 and the present conflict. Possibly the difference between than and now is the sheer number of people directly involved in the War. With great respect to those who have been affected by the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts, it is possible for many people (especially here in Western Europe) to ignore the conflict altogether in ways that it was not possible back then.

The reason the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq have gone on as long as they have, is because even most Americans have been able to personally ignore what's going on, particularly the last five or so years of it (obviously in the years immediately after 9/11, the war & terror propaganda was so overwhelming it was nearly impossible to avoid).

Around 140 US soldiers have died in Iraq and Afghanistan combined in the last four years. Most Americans will ignore conflict at that scale if they're told it's beneficial. Although Trump managed to get a lot of traction out of pointing out the financial cost while directly contrasting that with America's various domestic financial problems (such as the need to spend vast sums on infrastructure). A large majority of the US population understands very well at this point that the US can't afford the perpetual war machine any longer; we'll see what the war machine does to counter that cultural shift.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#38
post #9
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the life of me, I can't understand the strategic purpose of invading Afghanistan. They're not even the ones who attacked us on 9/11. The Afghan government at the time offered sanctuary to Al Qaeda, refusing to hand over its members after they had declared war on the U.S., attacked USS Cole, hijacked four civilian aircraft and crashed them into the World Trade CEnter & the Pentagon, killing thousands; the strate…

I asked the question ~2009. What never made sense to me is that with unsecured borders, what's the point of invaded a poor country of goat farmers? Ok yeah, so Al Qaeda supposedly attacked us and they were allegedly being harbored in Afghanistan. But the guys in the planes were Saudi. Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia? (That's a rhetorical question). If someone wants to come here and hurt us, they can do it pretty ea…

> they were allegedly being harbored in Afghanistan

The Taliban never even attempted to hide the fact that they harbored Bin Laden. Not sure if that partially answers your question.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#39

I was in Iraq in 1991. My friends and I were astounded when we heard of the cease-fire; we could easily push towards Baghdad and take care of Saddam Hussein, who was clearly the Hitler of our time. "We'll be back in a decade" I thought, as it seemed as if we were leaving with our work unfinished. I was off by a couple of years, but in 2003 when we went back into Iraq to finally take care of Hussein, I was pleased. Of…

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I'm not buying that these things (peace, environmental action, science investment, etc) aren't happening because the masses are being stymied by the powers that be.

On the contrary, I don't see the masses caring about these things at all. Do you?

I don't see the majority of the people demanding action against (or even acknowledging the existence of) climate change.

Nor do I see them demanding action against endless war or illegal surveillance.

Nor do I see them begging for more money to be invested in science.

Instead I see the people sometimes arguing about a few hot-button political issues, but mostly I see the people preoccupied with pop culture and their daily lives.

We, the People, have made it abundantly clear that we are fine with the status quo. No one had to coerce us.

Remember, the Iraq War was not started over the outcry of the American people.

It was started to thunderous applause.

Re: Where Are the Brave Military Voices Against the Forever War?

#40
post #18
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked the question ~2009. What never made sense to me is that with unsecured borders, what's the point of invaded a poor country of goat farmers? Ok yeah, so Al Qaeda supposedly attacked us and they were allegedly being harbored in Afghanistan. But the guys in the planes were Saudi. Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia? (That's a rhetorical question). If someone wants to come here and hurt us, they can do it pretty ea…

Yeah, by '09 there was clearly no reason. When they originally sold the war they played up Al Qaeda's size, power, and level of infrastructure (specifically in Afghanistan) so, assuming you believed that[1] the original invasion kind of made sense. [1] personally, my suspicions that the claims that this organization was so huge and capable and dangerous, yet had only just now managed anything so big and had totally f…

Karzai thinks AQ is a myth, has never seen or heard reports of them in Afghanistan :

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/10/hamid-karzai...

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