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Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

washingtonpost.com

351–360 of 377 posts

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#351
post #262
post #5

Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Lone experts have been fired in western countries when they have expressed this common sense sentiments alone [0]. I hope this groups fares better. Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists [1]. Any previous legislati…

> Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Well, I would say they are both. They are a health problem because of the addiction factors. They are a criminal problem because of what people are willing to do to get drugs when they run out of money.

Using that logic, food is a criminal problem.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#352
post #117
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Agreed. >...Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists This point is a little controversial, in, as far as I know, we have to take Ehrlichman's word on this. https://www.quora.com/Is-John-Ehrlichman-a-credible-source-…

As a follow-up, even though Nixon expanded treatment shouldn't we still blame him for the rhetorics that aggravated the "war on drugs" for the rest of the planet? It's after Nixon "war on drugs" stance that we begin to see harsher and harsher penalties for possession, criminalisation of usage (and this still applies here in Sweden, it's not only illegal to buy, sell or possess drugs but also to take them, if it's det…

>...It's after Nixon "war on drugs" stance that we begin to see harsher and harsher penalties for possession, criminalisation of usage

I don't know about other countries but the real push for harsher penalties in the US came in the 1980s after basketball star Len Bias died of cocaine overdose:

>...It became the sole focus of legislative activity for the remainder of the session on both sides of the aisle. Literally every committee, from the Committee on Agriculture to the Committee on Merchant Marine and Fisheries were somehow getting involved. Suddenly, the Len Bias case was the driving force behind every piece of legislation. Members of Congress were setting up hearings about the drug problem and every subcommittee chairman was looking to get a piece of the action

http://www.salon.com/2011/06/19/len_bias_cocaine_tragedy_sti...

>...(and this still applies here in Sweden, it's not only illegal to buy, sell or possess drugs but also to take them, if it's detected in a urine or blood test [mandatory tests if you are caught by the police] you have committed an offense)

This sounds like an internal issue in Sweden - I am not really sure how much you can blame the US for this. Certainly other countries near Sweden have more reasonable drug policies and the US doesn't try and stop that or punish the countries that I know of.

>...and then the Convention on Psychotropic Substances happened in 1971, very influenced by the US and UK stances on drugs.

The 1971 wasn't the first treaty on drugs. For example, the International Opium Convention that adopted restrictions on the opium poppy's psychoactive derivatives was in 1912.

According to wikipedia:

>...The Convention on Psychotropic Substances of 1971 is a United Nations treaty designed to control psychoactive drugs such as amphetamine-type stimulants, barbiturates, benzodiazepines, and psychedelics signed in Vienna, Austria on 21 February 1971. The Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs of 1961 did not ban the many newly-discovered psychotropics,[1] since its scope was limited to drugs with cannabis, coca, and opium-like effects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Psychotropic_Sub...

>...So as much as he tried to only "look tough", Nixon has fomented one of the worst problems in modern society,

I don't think that Nixon was the first politician who tried to look tough on drugs in the US (or in other countries). Anti-drug propaganda has been produced since before "Reefer Madness" and politicians have been ranting about drugs for a long time. A difference really was that Nixon was one of the first to try to greatly expand drug treatment and reform sentencing at least in a small way:

>...the mandatory minimum sentence in a federal prison for marijuana possession was 2-10 years until Nixon slashed it to 1 year with a judicial option to waive even that sentence. No federal mandatory drug sentence would be rolled back again for 40 years (in the Obama Administration).

http://www.samefacts.com/2011/06/drug-policy/who-started-the...

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#353
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Well, I would say they are both. They are a health problem because of the addiction factors. They are a criminal problem because of what people are willing to do to get drugs when they run out of money.

Using that logic, food is a criminal problem.

So you are saying we should treat drug addicts like we treat hunger - by having "drug kitchens" where addicts can come to get a free fix and by building up huge industries to mass produce drugs so they are much more accessible and affordable to addicts? That seems insane.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#354
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that some countries have state monopoly stores for wine and stronger alcoholic drinks, and most no longer allow advertising for alcohol. Similarly, consider the option of regulations like those in place for pharmacies in some countries, that e.g. requires the pharmacist to ensure you are aware of certain risks, but doesn't prevent you from buying. Consider the way some countries now requires tobacco to be ou…

I live in a place where the government had a monopoly on alcohol retail until recently (Ontario, Canada). I don't think it had any impact on sales. The biggest factor was price, the government fixed the prices fairly high (but those prices were the same for the retail exceptions, such as brewers' own premises). > Personally I believe even drugs like heroin should be legal, on the basis of harm reduction, but at the s…

The point of having the monopoly is be able to strictly enforce restrictions on things like marketing through an organization that is judged by compliance rather than by selling as much as possible.

> Well, if you nationalize heroin retail, then you will need to have a heroin shop in every hamlet, town, and neighbourhood. It hardly seems practical. You'll just end up with a somewhat smaller black market, instead of eliminating it.

Yet somehow places like Norway, with a population density nearly identical to Ontario manages to keep the black market for wine and spirits quite small, despite very high taxes on them compared to e.g. neighboring Denmark.

Which means there already is a suitable retail network. Or you can license pharmacies.

And the big difference is that people would be assured of getting clean, uncut, predictable doses. The cost of heroin is also so high and unstable that while there is reason to be concerned about making it too cheap, a large portion of the harm from heroin today is the high cost. The daily consumption of heroin for a typical user in clean, medical grade heroin costs less than $20 (we know, because it is produced for medical use, and prescribed e.g. in UK hospitals).

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#355
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know whether you or the person you're replying to is more correct, but it doesn't change their point: That these decisions are not something the average person should be making for themselves. If anything, your disagreement kind of makes the point even clearer. Maybe there might be an argument for people to be able to choose to obtain drugs like the ones mentioned by GP, but not without some kind of control-m…

But these are "customer protection" laws, which are intended to make sure people are informed and to make it reasonable to shop in the street, not to protect against people who intentionally try to break them. They are easily opted out of - they won't prevent you from e.g. buying whatever you want from China, and that's by design. There's no point in protecting a customer that doesn't want your protection. As opposed…

And that's how I think it makes sense to treat narcotics too.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#356
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that for a lot of these drugs the greatest harm comes from the lack quality control and regulation of sale. Not just because it results in drugs getting cut with all kinds of shit, and people being sold the wrong thing (e.g. selling heavily cut fentanyl instead of heroin), but also because of a the race to find alternatives that slip through cracks. A great deal of modern drugs only exists to circumven…

Yes but even the pure, quality drugs like adderall, which is really amphetamine can be dangerous. For opiates, especially people injecting, it is very inportant to get clean drugs, and actually opiates are not particularly harmful to the body if used correctly. They also don’t really present a threat to society if given the drug. Holland has provided addicts with heroin with great success, as a form of treatment.

They can be, but so can a lot of drugs sold at the grocery store. E.g. paracetamol/acetaminophen is one of the largest causes of liver damage in the UK. One of the big shifts there has been to restrict size of packaging and require pharmacists to exercise care (some will explicitly verbally warn you about the risk).

Ultimately I think that we'd in many respects do a lot better if it was possible for someone who wants to use things like Adderall for recreational use to go to their doctor and ask for advice and appropriate monitoring and know they won't be refused, than having people randomly taking it without getting proper advice.

But I also think another large potential benefit would be for doctors to be able to steer those who insist on using drugs to safer analogs were possible.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#357
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge proportion of US soldiers (20% according to some sources) also used heroin while in Vietnam, giving rise to one of the more interesting studies of addiction related to heroin [1] that also taught us a great deal about how to kick addictions and change behaviors (the short of it being that a change of environment makes breaking habits far easier) [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/01/02/14443179.…

It really shouldn't be a surprise that if someone's life is so shitty that they feel they need to do Heroin to escape it, then putting them through a grueling recovery process and then sending them back to their shitty life with no prospects is tremendously counterproductive.

And yet it apparently amazingly is still surprising to a lot of people.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#358
post #5

Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Lone experts have been fired in western countries when they have expressed this common sense sentiments alone [0]. I hope this groups fares better. Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists [1]. Any previous legislati…

Agreed. I hope it is a turning point too.

Now I wish we could have a national dialog about alcohol in this country.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#359
post #336
post #5

Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Lone experts have been fired in western countries when they have expressed this common sense sentiments alone [0]. I hope this groups fares better. Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists [1]. Any previous legislati…

Drugs are not health problem, the life is a health problem. Drug usage not= addiction or toxicomania, as alkohol usage is not necessarily cause health problems. There is a wide range of alcohol users, from sometimes a glass of wine to hardcore alcoholism. The humans are the problems, not the drugs. Drugs could be good or bad, depend on the usage.

Your comment completely misinterprets the subject of this article and the parent comment.

The argument isn't about the differentiation between "life" and "health". It's about how to deal with addiction -- using the medical / mental heath systems or the criminal incarceration systems.

I suspect you aren't a native English speaker, but perhaps you shouldn't be so critical/pedantic of the English of other commenters.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must not understand "The reason drugs are illegal is because they are addictive."

And as a result, more addictive drugs are more likely to be illegal, whereas less addictive ones are less likely to be illegal. What's not to understand?

What's not to understand is where ethanol falls here. It's easily as addictive as opiates, including heroin
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