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China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close

bbc.co.uk

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Re: China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close

#61

Post by TeMPOraL »

snitko wrote: post #53
TeMPOraL wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will say those people are wrong, and they're only able to think that because they live in stable societies under rule of law, and have time to criticize somewhat abstract issues like this. Now don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the present balance of power between individual and the state is perfectly placed. But thinking about ditching states altogether is, presently, a pretty dumb idea, that only signals a lack…

In fact, the opposite is true. Most of the people who are open to Bitcoin live in third-world countries (including myself) and have a natural distrust for government. Also, saying some people "are wrong" is not an argument.

> Most of the people who are open to Bitcoin live in third-world countries (including myself) and have a natural distrust for government.

That's an interesting claim. Is there a good Bitcoin use by country breakdown? Because my impression was, that with the notable exception of Brazil, Bitcoin is still mostly the techie-westerners thing.

> Also, saying some people "are wrong" is not an argument.

That's not an argument, just my current belief. It might be wrong.

Re: China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close

#62

Post by pja »

gruez wrote: post #10
korzun wrote: post #3

But.. but.. an 'analyst' for CoinDesk said this was normal and the exchanges will just need to get a license and China welcome them back with open arms. The bullshit artists that already 'invested' in this scheme will now tell you that China did not matter and the people under them will parrot it. Anybody that disagrees simply doesn't understand Bitcoin or just mad that they could not get on the choo-choo train at th…

>The bullshit artists that already 'invested' in this scheme will now tell you that China did not matter and the people under them will parrot it. If you're so sure that it's bullshit you're free to put your money where your mouth is and short it.

1) Shorting into a bubble is usually a terrible idea.

2) The only realistic way to short BTC is to do so via a very small list of exchanges. Even if you trust them (which, given the history of cryptocurrency exchanges is hardly a given) the borrow cost is huge: there's no way you could reasonably make this kind of macro BTC bet.

The combination of these two realities makes the "If you don't believe the price, you ought to be shorting it" assertion completely baseless.

Re: China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close

#63

Post by tboyd47 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #56
tboyd47 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wondering - when is it not a good thing for the state to be able to enforce their rules, then? You said "almost always." Specifically referring to money since the topic of conversation is Bitcoin.

I was thinking about the cases when the rules are needlessly oppressive. Governments aren't perfect. But they're better than the state of nature.

So what would be an example of an economic rule that's needlessly oppressive?

Re: China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close

#64

Post by ue_ »

harwoodleon wrote: post #21

Bitcoin and for that matter all crypto currency is a libertarian ideal. Libertarian ideals do not fit in communist societies. Regulation was always coming, as even liberal societies regulate. But regulation is only there to keep the established order. The established order is very afraid of crypto right now in the same way the music industry freaked out over MP3. I can't help it, but I get annoyed when crypto is bran…

>Libertarian ideals do not fit in communist societies. Regulation was always coming, as even liberal societies regulate.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here; that regulation is a Communist idea? Either way, China is not a Communist society, it's a very capitalist society, with private property, wage labour etc. Also, libertarian (used in the original way libertarian was used) is Communist society. The modern "libertarian" (propertytarian) ideals do not fit in Communist society. Great lovers of freedom from democratic socialists Oscar Wilde to George Orwell to the social anarchists knew this.

Re: China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close

#65

Post by cs702 »

nikcub wrote: post #43
cs702 wrote: post #15

As soon as I read this, two words came to mind: Capital flight. A growing number of Chinese nationals has been using Bitcoin to siphon money out of China over the past several years.[1][2] Not surprisingly, the Chinese government is cracking down on this innovative form of capital flight. [1] http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1891021-how-chinese-use-bitc... [2] http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/markets/chinese-i…

> The saver can then exchange bitcoin for dollars at any of the global bitcoin exchanges without anyone ever knowing his identity. This is where the "Chinese people use Bitcoin to exfil capital" story falls apart. It's near impossible to open a foreign bank account and pass KYC from within China as a Chinese citizen. You have to travel to Macau or Hong Kong - and if you're doing that you may as well use the cheaper a…

As sboselli points out below (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15285900), money doesn't even need to leave the country. Just the fact alone that a Chinese citizen is buying foreign currency or Bitcoin in a black market constitutes a form of capital flight.

Re: China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close

#66

Post by rossdavidh »

evbots wrote: post #55
cs702 wrote: post #15

As soon as I read this, two words came to mind: Capital flight. A growing number of Chinese nationals has been using Bitcoin to siphon money out of China over the past several years.[1][2] Not surprisingly, the Chinese government is cracking down on this innovative form of capital flight. [1] http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1891021-how-chinese-use-bitc... [2] http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/markets/chinese-i…

I really don't understand the capital flight argument. The Chinese economy has seen overwhelming growth in the past 10 years. If you are searching for yield, it's in China.

Some of China's growth looks bubble-ish, even to wealthy Chinese. If you think that, you might want to get your wealth out before the bubble bursts.

Re: China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close

#67

Post by booleanbetrayal »

eightysixfour wrote: post #58
evbots wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand the capital flight argument. The Chinese economy has seen overwhelming growth in the past 10 years. If you are searching for yield, it's in China.

The CCP's concern is that once people get wealthy in China, they want to leave China with the money.

It's a legitimate concern rooted in past precedent. I also think this is partly why you are seeing large expenditures aimed at green-tech, etc. If you can turn around some of the social ills (namely pollution), you can stem the flow a bit.

Re: China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close

#68

Post by TaylorGood »

evbots wrote: post #55
cs702 wrote: post #15

As soon as I read this, two words came to mind: Capital flight. A growing number of Chinese nationals has been using Bitcoin to siphon money out of China over the past several years.[1][2] Not surprisingly, the Chinese government is cracking down on this innovative form of capital flight. [1] http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1891021-how-chinese-use-bitc... [2] http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/markets/chinese-i…

I really don't understand the capital flight argument. The Chinese economy has seen overwhelming growth in the past 10 years. If you are searching for yield, it's in China.

The government control in China is a driving force to spread your capital outside. Remember, average citizen can only transfer out $60k per annum. Not much.

Re: China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close

#69

Post by vkou »

booleanbetrayal wrote: post #67
eightysixfour wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CCP's concern is that once people get wealthy in China, they want to leave China with the money.

It's a legitimate concern rooted in past precedent. I also think this is partly why you are seeing large expenditures aimed at green-tech, etc. If you can turn around some of the social ills (namely pollution), you can stem the flow a bit.

It's not just quality of life. A lot of wealthy people have at least some exposure to criminal behaviour, and are not keen on being swept up in white collar prosecutions.

Re: China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close

#70

Post by TeMPOraL »

tboyd47 wrote: post #63
TeMPOraL wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about the cases when the rules are needlessly oppressive. Governments aren't perfect. But they're better than the state of nature.

So what would be an example of an economic rule that's needlessly oppressive?

I started with an assertion that money, in practice, is synonymous to power. I wasn't thinking about just economic rules.

But to pick something in big part economical, I'd say the war on drugs can be an example of a rule that's widely considered stupid, needlessly oppressive, and bad both economically and morally.

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