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Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or alternatively, go on keto diet - 60-70% fat (mostly animal and milk fat), 20-30% protein, 5-10% carbs. Make sure to increase your electrolyte and fiber intake to account for lower intake of those through the diet.

A few colleagues at work recently started their keto diets (primarily in order to lose weight). I am interested in gut health and looked at some of the background materials I could find. It seems reasonable that the body can switch its energy source to fat, but the (long term) effects on overall health seem to be poorly studied/ understood.

My father worked in Mongolia and observed how local people in remote rural areas ate. Calories came only from meat of horses, sheep, camels and some small game plus fermented camel milk. There were no vegetables or any other plants besides few herbs that they used for tea. This is not surprising as it is very difficult to grow there anything but local grass, so one can survive only from animals that can eat that.

My father does not remember that locals got some particular health problems from that. Old people looked healthy and worked pretty much until the dearth. What is especially interesting that it was also true for descendants of Russian emigrants there from 100 years ago, but they did grow some vegetables and cereals.

Of cause, that does not prove that meat is healthy. But it does show that in a particular climate eating only meat is not harmful when the meat is from animals that was treated by locals with extreme respect and that were fed on grass that was either fresh or covered with snow at winter.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#102
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few colleagues at work recently started their keto diets (primarily in order to lose weight). I am interested in gut health and looked at some of the background materials I could find. It seems reasonable that the body can switch its energy source to fat, but the (long term) effects on overall health seem to be poorly studied/ understood.

My father worked in Mongolia and observed how local people in remote rural areas ate. Calories came only from meat of horses, sheep, camels and some small game plus fermented camel milk. There were no vegetables or any other plants besides few herbs that they used for tea. This is not surprising as it is very difficult to grow there anything but local grass, so one can survive only from animals that can eat that. My…

Meat is not bad on its own. All claims and 'research' about meat being bad are by people who have an ulterior motive. Online it's mostly sensitive vegans who think that the legitimacy of their goal of 'not hurting animals' gives them right to steal, cheat and kill their way to it.

All bad things related to meat consumption are result of intensive and unhealthy farming practices, and combining increased fat intake with increased carb intake (especially fructose). Correlation, not causation.

That being said, there are two issues with meat: in the West, we pretty much only consider muscle as meat, and dislike the internal organs, when it should be the other way around. Even obligate carnivores prefer internal organs because they are richer with fat, and often leave a lot of muscle meat on carcasses.

Second, and related, issue is that muscle meat based diet is a high-protein diet, not high-fat diet, so it's more akin to Atkins than to keto diet. High protein diet comes with its own set of issues: it places significantly higher load on liver, which causes increase in liver size; obligate carnivores have extremely large livers compared to their body size (just google for an image of shark's liver compared to its body, it's almost 1/3 of the volume). This also applies to humans, for example Inuit have enlarged livers as well.

This is the result of increased need for protein-processing capacity. Liver can only process so much protein into fuel per unit of its volume per unit of time. And to use Inuit as example again, because of this, they keep snacking every couple of hours, more often when exerting themselves physically.

A related concept is 'rabbit starvation': eating lean meat (rabbit in winter) is not enough to keep a human being alive - while you're in theory ingesting enough calories to survive, your liver's capacity to process pure protein into fuel is less than your body's need for fuel.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#103
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I second the fact that this is crackpot-level science - you can basically only change the acidity of your urine with dietary modifications - not your blood. Btw changing the PH value of your body thing is endorsed by various charlatans for all kinds of stuff - from curing the flu to cancer.

Hmmm, a brief search reveals this; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3195546/ I'm not really equipped to review, but it does make some interesting points that while the body strongly maintains blood PH of between 7.35 and 7.45 the mechanisms of doing this can cause more stress on other systems in the body depending on your diet. It's also interesting that we used to have pre agriculture a 10:1 rather than…

My very cursory analysis, after skimming the article follows. First, the article in general is quite misleading. It's written in a language that a layman would understand, but in a way that causes such layman to misunderstand some crucial points. I don't know if this is on purpose, or if the author is just honestly trying to address a complex topic and failing.

- Part 1. Background

> Life on earth depends on appropriate pH levels in and around living organisms and cells.

I take issue with this sentence. This is obviously true, as life must carefully control the concentrations of some substances inside and outside the cell. However, this makes it seem like pH is uniquely special. This is not true: pH is merely a measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions in a solution. If this is meant to address the layman, as it's supposed to, such clarification is important. In fact, I think many of the myths around pH would be better addressed by making the pH concept taboo, and talking instead of "the concentration of H+ ions in solution".

> As a comparison, in the past 100 years with increasing industrialization, the pH of the ocean has dropped from 8.2 to 8.1 because of increasing CO2 deposition.

This is very important for the bisphere as a whole, but useless to understand the impact of pH changes in the body. I don't understand the reason for this section.

> This results in a diet that may induce metabolic acidosis which is mismatched to the genetically determined nutritional requirements

No. This is not true. Such diet may wreck your kidneys due to hypertension, and the kidney damage will give you metabolic acidosis. The diet itself will not give you metabolic acidosis, as long as your lungs and kidneys are fine. This is written in a very misleading way.

> With aging, there is a gradual loss of renal acid-base regulatory function and a resultant increase in diet-induced metabolic acidosis while on the modern diet

Now we're talking. I don' know if this is exactly true, but at least it makes sense.

- Part 2. The Role of pH in Various Cells, Organs, and Membranes

None of the mechanisms described here have anything to do with the systemic blood pH. The author doesn't say it, and he should. This section adds confusion and very little understanding

- 3. Chronic Acidosis and Bone Disease

This section is a little confusing. Many studies, little understanding.

The interesting part is this:

> There is evidence that in healthy humans the increased sodium in the diet can predict the degree of hyperchloremic metabolic acidosis when consuming a net acid producing diet

The study this is taken from has does have some regressions that advance this point, but the correlation is so weak I'm not sure we should take the results at face value.

- 4. Alkaline Diets and Musce

> Conditions such as chronic renal failure that result in chronic metabolic acidosis result in accelerated breakdown in skeletal muscle [40]. Correction of acidosis may preserve muscle mass in conditions where muscle wasting is common such as diabetic ketosis, trauma, sepsis, chronic obstructive lung disease, and renal failure

While you can manipulate the pH f patines with no functioning kidneys by giving them tablets with NaHCO3 (an alkali), you should never, ever extrapolate this to the diet of healthy people. Even in patients with kidney failure, doctors don't try to correct the pH with diet alone.

- 5. Alkaline Supplementation and Growth Hormone

> It has long been known that severe forms of metabolic acidosis in children, such as renal tubular acidosis,

No, no, no... Again, don't extrapolate from serious kidney diseases to healthy subjects.

- 7. Alkalinity and Chemotherapy

Some drugs work better with low pH and some work better with high pH. Again, you won't change the pH with diet, so this is useless to a discussion of Alkaline diet

> It has been suggested that inducing metabolic alkalosis may be useful in enhancing some treatment regimes by using sodium bicarbonate, carbicab, and furosemide

As you can see, even when you cant to induce alkalosis, you sue actual drugs, and not dietary changes (one of these drugs, furosemide, works by manipulation kidney function, it's not merely an alkali concentrate).

The discussion and conclusion say that the evidence is weak for lots of things. The only stroong part is the K/Na ratio. If the Alkali diet does this, then its benefits have nothing to do with blood alkalinization per se.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#104
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably not. Unlike MS, which is an autoimmune disease, ALS is not autoimmune. The exact cause is only known in some cases, but it seems to stem from problems with the machinery inside the cell, not an aggression by the immune system from outside the cell.

How about CFS?

Do you mean CSF instead (Cerebrospinal fluid)? I'm not qualified to answer that, sorry. But my best guess is that the problem is almost 100% intracellular.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#105
post #12
post #10

the gut immune system has 70– 80% of the body's immune cells. http://m.ajpgi.physiology.org/content/277/5/G922 It seems like a pretty obvious connection once you know that detail. If you have any kind of chronic medical condition, you would likely benefit from improving your gut health. (Hint: Dietary changes are a good place to start.)

What kind of changes? I have a hard time searching google about gut health without feeling like none of it's scientific, and all a scam for advertising or selling products.

eat what your ancestors ate.

in america, there is almost a shaming done if you do not eat other cultures foods, but other cultures mostly stick to their own food (and there is a good reason for that).

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#106
post #9
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on this for people not familiar with the types of MS that might exist? I have an aunt with MS and got excited by this article, but still wasn't aware that it might be limited to a subset?

So, the more precise description of different types you could read about, say, on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_sclerosis#Types . To describe it briefly, though - there are different types, some appear later in life some earlier, some show up sporadically, while some are constant and get progressively worse. The issue is that, from what I know, there is nobody who can even tell if they are the same…

> The issue is that, from what I know, there is nobody who can even tell if they are the same pathology, just that they have some similar symptoms.

I have an auto-immune disease (ulcerative colitis) and the situation is the same for me. Doctors always tell me they can never be entirely sure that's what it is. But I'm sure there are plenty of diagnosis are generalizations about symptoms rather than root cause.

We simply don't know what causes plenty of diseases.

Side-note: given that my aunt has MS while me and multiple of my other aunts have an IBD (irritable bowel diseases: chrohns, colitis) on one side of the family, there seems to be a connection between UC and MS as both are auto-immune related:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17894769

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#107
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father worked in Mongolia and observed how local people in remote rural areas ate. Calories came only from meat of horses, sheep, camels and some small game plus fermented camel milk. There were no vegetables or any other plants besides few herbs that they used for tea. This is not surprising as it is very difficult to grow there anything but local grass, so one can survive only from animals that can eat that. My…

Meat is not bad on its own. All claims and 'research' about meat being bad are by people who have an ulterior motive. Online it's mostly sensitive vegans who think that the legitimacy of their goal of 'not hurting animals' gives them right to steal, cheat and kill their way to it. All bad things related to meat consumption are result of intensive and unhealthy farming practices, and combining increased fat intake wit…

[1] gives direct evidence that meat from grass-feed cows comes with higher load of endotoxins than wild game. It will be interesting to know if this is a consequence of modern breading/farming or something related to cow domestication.

[1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20377925

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#108
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this books makes the case against raw diets very well: https://www.amazon.com/Catching-Fire-Cooking-Made-Human/dp/0... That's the thing with diets. There is a real well reasoned argument for and against most anything...

Does the book really present evidence that a raw diet is worse for human health than cooked food? From the table of content and introduction it seems to present a strong case that cooking affected human evolution. But that does not mean that it made humans healthier. For example, cooking could have made long-term health worse, but other benefits coming from increased food availability and shortening time to get it ou…

It's not the main point of the book, but it does describe how it's very hard to live a healthy life on only raw food. I remember it pointing out that about half of women on such diets stop menstruating.

This is something our bodies do out of pretty desperate lack of nutrients, and it's of course devastating from an evolutionary standpoint.

The thesis of the book is that we've cooked food for so long that our digestive system is adapted to it. It even speculates that the shrunken digestive system made our bigger brains possible. All that is far from uncontroversial, but it's a well written and argued text.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#109
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meat is not bad on its own. All claims and 'research' about meat being bad are by people who have an ulterior motive. Online it's mostly sensitive vegans who think that the legitimacy of their goal of 'not hurting animals' gives them right to steal, cheat and kill their way to it. All bad things related to meat consumption are result of intensive and unhealthy farming practices, and combining increased fat intake wit…

[1] gives direct evidence that meat from grass-feed cows comes with higher load of endotoxins than wild game. It will be interesting to know if this is a consequence of modern breading/farming or something related to cow domestication. [1] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20377925

Thank you for that link.

The summary doesn't mention 'grass-fed', only 'wagyu'; wagyu is intensively grain-fed in the last year of their life or so.

To quote from a quickly-googled article:

"What many people overlook is that farmers make Wagyu as fatty as possible by feeding their cows huge amounts of grain for the last 300-500 days of their lives. Some farmers even add wine and beer to further increase fat content. The result is that a wagyu cow’s muscle tissue is thoroughly marbled with fat. Unfortunately, it’s the kind of fat that is not good for you. The mold toxins in all that grain are bad for the cow and end up in its fat, and then in you, which would mean wagyu beef has a disproportionately high toxin load."

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#110
post #19
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of changes? I have a hard time searching google about gut health without feeling like none of it's scientific, and all a scam for advertising or selling products.

I've recently watched a ton of Ted talks on the subject (thank you, autoplay), so you can call me a proper internet know-it-all. The consensus seems to be: nobody knows, but the SAD certainly is not the right answer. As diverse as you can get and as little processed as you stand seem to be popular ideas too. Dropping sugar and milk seem commonly recommended, but they can pry my ice-cream from my cold, dead fingers.

What exactly does "processed" mean though? Cooking is a form of processing so do I have to go raw? Pressing oils out of nuts is processing so do I give up oils and only eat nuts? I thought fermented foods showed some potential health benefits but I'd argue that fermentation falls under "highly processed."

"Processed" is a vague word that means very little.

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